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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132609
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| Posted: 12 November 2009 at 2:32pm | IP Logged | 1
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Watchmen didn't rewrite existing characters or their world…•• No, in fact it did something even worse: it rewrote the whole
concept of the superhero. Feet of clay is one thing, as Stan Lee
showed us so superbly. What Moore did, masquerading as
"deconstruction", was pure destruction. The effect was immediate. Halfway thru THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS,
Frank Miller, having read preview copies of WATCHMEN DC was handing
out (I got them too) changed the direction of his book, and shunted
Batman into the Watchmen "universe", in tone if not in actuality.
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David Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 3035
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| Posted: 12 November 2009 at 2:51pm | IP Logged | 2
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It's not like Batman is going to defeat Galactus with his bare hands. He has access to enormous resources, including billions of dollars, extraterrestrial technology and the entire Justice League of America. And those wits are going to take him pretty far with tools like those at his disposal.
The original Galactus trilogy would have been played out in eight pages in World's Finest. Think about it: While Superman does what he can to distract Galactus, Batman, World's Greatest Detective, would quickly deduce that Galactus possesses weaponry capable of destroying himself, and it's probably available on a nearby ship or G's homeworld.
Batman can use JLA tech to locate and travel to anywhere in the multiverse. Once in Galactus' HQ, Batman, World's Greatest Detective, is certainly capable of deducing the most powerful weapon on the premises. Nullifier in hand, Batman would beat Galactus.
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David Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 3035
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| Posted: 12 November 2009 at 2:53pm | IP Logged | 3
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JB: Do you know what the latter half of Dark Knight would have been like without the change in direction? Did Frank tell you, or do you have any speculation you'd care to share?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132609
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| Posted: 12 November 2009 at 2:58pm | IP Logged | 4
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JB: Do you know what the latter half of Dark Knight would have been like
without the change in direction? Did Frank tell you, or do you have any
speculation you'd care to share? •• Nothing to tell. Frank has a tendency to change direction midway thru his
stories. It's very much the way he writes. It was just a little more obvious
(as was the influence) in DKR.
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robert jones
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 August 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 125
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| Posted: 12 November 2009 at 6:14pm | IP Logged | 5
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If Reed Richards, arguably the smartest guy on Earth, didn't know anything about the Ultimate Nullifier (if I remember correctly it was the Watcher who directed Johnny to the Nullifier), then I think that Batman wouldn't have a clue as to what would destroy Galactus.
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William Lukash
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1405
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| Posted: 12 November 2009 at 7:30pm | IP Logged | 6
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Why would Batman be able to deduce Galactus had the Ultimate Nullifier? The Watcher had to tell Reed.
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Don Zomberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 November 2005
Posts: 2355
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| Posted: 12 November 2009 at 10:07pm | IP Logged | 7
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Nullifier in hand... You're giving Batman WAY too much credit. How the hell would he know what the Nullifier is just by looking at it? You're confusing what we as readers know with what the characters know.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132609
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| Posted: 12 November 2009 at 10:11pm | IP Logged | 8
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And so we see why, in so many cases, fans should not write comicbooks!
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Martin Redmond
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 June 2006
Posts: 3882
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| Posted: 12 November 2009 at 10:37pm | IP Logged | 9
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An anti-life gun. That would be hardcore cuz like Batman's sworn off gunz.
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David Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
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| Posted: 13 November 2009 at 1:10am | IP Logged | 10
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If someone really thinks that "Batman wouldn't have a clue" in any situation, we already fundamentally disagree about the very essence of the character.
Coming up with a plan to turn an alien attacker's weaponry against the attacker and then doing so doesn't require the enlightened POV of a comic book reader, or the super genius of a Reed Richards. Sure, Bruce Wayne's IQ is probably in the dismal cellar of the 170's, but consider that he is The World's Greatest Detective, a brilliant tactician and has practical experience with alien invasions, extra-terrestrial weaponry, time travel, interstellar conquerors, "Crises," you name it. He's been to as many alien worlds as Reed, and has his own collection of mind-blowing alien technology.
This is not on the level of insisting that Wolverine could beat Galactus. That's completely crazy of course. I'm not saying Batman is gonna face down Big G with a batarang and Robin by his side. A reasoned, considered, albeit fannish reflection on the characters and stories leads me to believe that Batman beating Galactus isn't a concept out of delusion fanfic crazyland. He has the smarts and resources to face down Galactus like Reed did in FF #50, and he has the network and leadership to organize an army against Galactus like we saw in FF #243. Batman could beat Galactus credibly in a good story, and importantly, in a good Batman story. Maybe a good Batman story from the Fifties, but still. I think the character contains enough multitudes to make it work.
Of course, if one is a Grant Morrison fan, you might consider Final Crisis the definitive account of what happens when Batman goes toe to toe with a god-like being: he gets carbonized. But just because he had that one bad experience (or bad story) doesn't mean that in a Galactus, or Galactus-like situation, Batman couldn't be the point man to save earth.
JB, while my writing career hasn't entirely avoided comicbooks, it has thankfully steered far away from The Batman:
EDITED to re-size the picture. I think the full 500 pixel width should be reserved for the liked of Gil Kane and John Byrne.
Edited by David Miller on 13 November 2009 at 1:14am
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4564
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| Posted: 13 November 2009 at 2:23am | IP Logged | 11
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David Miller wrote:
| If someone really thinks that "Batman wouldn't have a clue" in any situation, we already fundamentally disagree about the very essence of the character. |
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Yes indeed. What you describe is not Batman to me. Batman to me is the world's greatest detective and a skillful tactician, and an all-around smart guy. He's also skilled at a variety of martial arts and other fighting methods. But he is human. I really dislike seeing his abilities elevated to the level of super-human, as happens so often in comics of the past 15 or so years. Batman to me is a guy who plans ahead very well but still can be caught off guard at times. He's a great fighter but he can be beaten down by a large group of thugs, or ambushed by a sneaky thug who comes up behind him. Since he's human, of course there are situations in which he is clueless, though he can adapt well and adjust better than the average guy in such situations.
In the first Galactus story, it was the Watcher, not Reed Richards, who defeated Galactus. Batman would also need the help of the Watcher. But I wouldn't want to read that story anyway. Batman in general does not belong in stories with aliens and cosmic menaces that threaten the entire world or universe, unless they are written by Bob Haney.
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James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 7690
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| Posted: 13 November 2009 at 3:07am | IP Logged | 12
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Watchmen didn't rewrite existing characters or their world,
************************************************************ *********** It would have if the original concept had been maintained - it was only DC's decision when they realised that the story effectively left the Charlton characters in a place where they could not be used that led to the recharacterisation. And you have to admit, they were still pretty much easily identifiable analogues for existing Charlton characters so I disagree with that statement.
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Topic Closed)
