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Robbie Patterson
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Joined: 15 August 2004
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| Posted: 12 June 2009 at 7:10pm | IP Logged | 1
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This thread's not meant as a smear against Stan Lee, but re-watching the rather excellent BBC documentary "searching for Steve Ditko" tonight (http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/comicsbritannia/ross-ditko.sht ml) got me wondering...
What would have the MODERN Marvel have been like if, instead of Stan Lee continuing on the likes of, & shaping Spider-Man, the FF, etc etc, it had been Kirby & Ditko who had taken the reigns?
Would their career routes have led to the same sort of work being produced at Marvel? Would Mr.A have been a Marvel character? Would the New Gods have come into being one way or the other?
What do you reckon?
Edited by Robbie Patterson on 12 June 2009 at 7:11pm
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Paul Gibney
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Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 12 June 2009 at 7:18pm | IP Logged | 2
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I'd recommend you to compare Ditko's Blue Beetle to Ditko and Lee's Spider-man if you have any doubts about how great a contribution Stan made to the process.
Similar to that, compare FF to the New Gods for Kirby.
Very different projects, but that'll give you an idea of what Stan was able to do.
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Jesus Garcia
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| Posted: 12 June 2009 at 8:07pm | IP Logged | 3
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While I tend to side with Kirby & Ditko -- because I've often toiled in
obscurity doing the nitty-gritty devil-is-in-the-details work for little or no
recognition -- Stan definitely contributed something unique.
For one thing, he had a great sense of drama. I can see where Ditko was
going with the notion of the person behind the Green Goblin as being an
anonymous everyman, but, to the general public, Norman Osborn was far
more dramatic.
For another thing, Lee gave his heroes very distinctive personalities and
dialogues. Over at DC, Nightwing, Speedy, and Aqualad sound like the same
guy but Parker, Grimm, Blake, Thor, Namor, Radd are distinct.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 12 June 2009 at 8:42pm | IP Logged | 4
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Stan's mutant power was that he took everything to eleven. Not to take an
iota away from Kirby and Ditko, but without Stan Marvel would not have
been Marvel.
As I have often pointed out, if you want a quick "pocket reference" for what
Stan brought to the table, go check the origin of the Red Skull he and Jack
did in TALES OF SUSPENSE. The words tell a story that is quite different
from, and superior to, the one being told in the pictures.
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Joined: 22 September 2006
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| Posted: 12 June 2009 at 11:29pm | IP Logged | 5
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From an executive perspective, Kirby and Ditko were non-entities. Kirby had experience as an editor, but he wasn't a smooth talker and Ditko was unwilling to compromise. While they might have been able to present more creatively challenging ideas, they were no good at "selling" them to either editorial or the public. No matter how talented, they would never have been preferred over the editor (Stan Lee) when the business was booming unless the editor was found doing unsavory things with an underage relative of the publisher. Which of course he wasn't.
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Chris Durnell
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| Posted: 12 June 2009 at 11:59pm | IP Logged | 6
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Mr. A would not have been a Marvel character as it was too personal a creation. Although I could see the Question as possibly being a Marvel character. Blue Beetle was an existing property Ditko simply revamped.
In terms of real impact, it heavily depends on who Ditko and Kirby get as a scripter. If they script their own stories, Marvel will suffer. Both had a tin ear for dialogue. But if they decide to simply stay in control of their plots and get a good scripter they can trust to tell "their" stories and not take over, then it becomes real interesting.
For Ditko to stay, then Stan must depart in 1966. Ditko is doing Spider-Man, Dr Strange, and Hulk (although I don't know how much Ditko was driving Hulk - did he control plot like he did with Spidey & Strange, or simply an art robot?). Ditko on strange would be glorious - he's been the only one way to really get the character (although Roger Stern did a terrific run). But how much longer would Ditko keep doing such a magical character?
We'd get a different Spider-Man than we were used to. Peter Parker remains a more isolated and anti-social character than he would under Lee and Romita. I really have no idea how the Gwen Stacy romance would work out. Ditko really liked throwing roadblocks up while keeping the two of them really interested in each other. I get the impression it'd really be a passionate romance rather than a sweet one. I think we'd see Peter have a personality much more influenced by Ditko's objectivism - more heroic, less diplomatic. We'd get a different status quo than we'd be used to. We'd probably get more Spidey villains. Most of the ones Stan created with Romita didn't really grab the imagination. The Rhino stook around, but not others. While I like the Rhino, the loss would not be much. But we also wouldn't have the Kingpin (although the character really didn't become interesting until Frank Miller used him in Daredevil).
Kirby worked with Stan until 1969 or later, right? Not much would change except that Kirby wouldn't phone in his last 2 years worth of work. The quality really goes down in the FF. You could tell he just didn't care anymore. But with complete control, Kirby is likely to keep turning in very imaginative stories and ideas. The big change we see is that Silver Surfer remains a person created out pure energy - no Norrin Radd, no Shalla Ball. In my mind, that'd be a good thing. Given Kirby's work on other Marvel titles, I'm not sure if he would have created new titles. And the New Gods really don't fit into the existing universe he created with Marvel, although I would not be surprised if some elements were incorporated into the other magazines he'd do. I do think Kirby would leave an even bigger sandbox for future writers.
An interesting thing is that with Stan's departure, some titles need to be written by other writers much sooner than they did. Stan still scripted Iron Man, Avengers, X-Men and others - those books were drawn by Don Heck and others. Not sure how much difference that would make. Presumably Roy Thomas would insert even more Golden Age characters into Marvel! We might also get an earlier opportunity for Denny O'Neil to make his mark. Would there even be a Captain Mar-Vell? Would Thomas and perhaps Neal Adams save X-Men from cancellation if they were on the book earlier? Who knows. If so, no "new" X-Men. Although perhaps Len Wein does things with a solo Wolverine, and perhaps some of Dave Cockrum's characters make their appearance in some form.
But Stan Lee was the owner's nephew. It was never going to be Stan that left. But it's an interesting thought experiment. I really think that Ditko and Kirby were much more creative forces than Lee, but as JB said, Stan really knew how to turn it up to 11!
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Joined: 22 September 2006
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| Posted: 13 June 2009 at 12:22am | IP Logged | 7
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"But Stan Lee was the owner's nephew. It was never going to be Stan that left."
Oh, no. I don't think you can read THAT much into the familial relationship. They were not that close, and related only by marriage and Stan was originally hired as a gopher, the rest he earned. I think the Atlas Comics debacle showed what REAL Goodman nepotism was like.
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John Peter Britton
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| Posted: 13 June 2009 at 6:19am | IP Logged | 8
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You can't have one without the other it takes two to tango!
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Luca Tavan
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Location: Australia
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| Posted: 13 June 2009 at 6:31am | IP Logged | 9
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Does anybody know where I can watch this documentary? I have been reading about it and I need to see it!
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John Peter Britton
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| Posted: 13 June 2009 at 6:33am | IP Logged | 10
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It might be on Youtube Luca give that a try!
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Luca Tavan
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| Posted: 13 June 2009 at 6:36am | IP Logged | 11
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It was for a time, but was removed to to copyright infringement.... Oh well, I'll have to keep trying.
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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| Posted: 13 June 2009 at 6:44am | IP Logged | 12
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The "searching for Ditko" documentary is weird. Lots of talk with fans about how much they love his work and then Ross and Gaiman standing outside his apartment building going "we found him". They didn'¨t get to bring the cameras in and he didn't agree to an interview, but still invited them in, talked with them and was the perfect host, only we didn't get to see it. Just them gushing afterwards about how cool it was to meet Steve Ditko.
But if they knew anything about Steve Ditko, they'd know that he wouldn't agree to a camera interview, so why bother him at all.
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Topic Closed)
