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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133318
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| Posted: 02 August 2008 at 7:38am | IP Logged | 1
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The problem here…
••
There's a lot more than one problem with that page!
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Anthony Frail
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 October 2007
Posts: 960
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| Posted: 02 August 2008 at 7:45am | IP Logged | 2
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Mike Allred told an Alex Toth story in the back of one of his books; him
and Toth had a friendly relationship in which Mike would send Alex
various items such as books or merchandise. In any case, after sending
one such package, Toth angrily called Allred; apparently, some loose
change found its way into the package and Toth was insulted and felt that
Allred was insinutating that Toth was poor and sent the change as a way
of making fun of him. Allred told him that he has several small children
and that it was likely the kids just engaging in nonsense. He would never
make fun of one of his personal heroes. Nevertheless, Toth insisted that it
was an intentional slight from Allred and never spoke to him again,
refusing to take his phone calls.
Constructive criticism is one thing; berating and insulting someone is
another.
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Orlando Teuta Jr
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1043
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| Posted: 02 August 2008 at 7:59am | IP Logged | 3
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JB, when you were starting out, did you ever receive an unflattering but honest review? If so, did you find them helpful?
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Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15539
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| Posted: 02 August 2008 at 8:05am | IP Logged | 4
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QUOTE:
| There's a lot more than one problem with that page! |
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True. That's the most noticeable, though, perhaps.
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Knut Robert Knutsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006
Posts: 7374
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| Posted: 02 August 2008 at 8:34am | IP Logged | 5
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"Constructive criticism is one thing; berating and insulting someone is
another. "
True. But there are some people known throughout the comics industry for their temperament. You don't approach someone like Alex Toth or Harlan Ellison for instance to ask for criticism and then try to argue against it. That's asking for trouble. The Allred incident? Well, sometimes it doesn't take a lot.
I've found that with people with very extreme personalities you need to know the risks going in. Hell, odd as it may seem, sometimes the best way to handle people who yell a lot is to yell a lot louder. They seem (He said in his best David Attenborough voice) to respond better to yelling, equating loudness and profanity with honesty and sincerity.
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Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15539
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| Posted: 02 August 2008 at 8:47am | IP Logged | 6
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That Allred story is just beyond ridiculous. We can admire these people's works but we don't have to deify them. Wrong is wrong.
Edited by Paulo Pereira on 02 August 2008 at 8:48am
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Michael Retour
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 932
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| Posted: 02 August 2008 at 9:00am | IP Logged | 7
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Rude's Moth page looks good to me. I am not a professional artist so I have no idea what to look for here but I can't see problems with the page. I'd love to have them pointed out so I can understand. Between panels 2 and 3 the characters could have moved right? The only problem I can see is why the criminal in panel 3 didn't shoot the Moth. I guess the Moth moves really fast. The Moth is like Batman in the sense he's just a man without super-powers who has trained to fight crime.
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Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15539
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| Posted: 02 August 2008 at 9:16am | IP Logged | 8
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QUOTE:
| I'd love to have them pointed out so I can understand. |
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I thought I did that but what the hey, I'll try again.
Sure the characters could have moved, but why? Goon #1 is just about to shoot the girl. Not much time for anyone to move in the time to move between the time the goon threatens to pull the trigger and the Moth clobbers him. And even if there's a good reason for it, the room couldn't have morphed or spun around. Again, in panel 2, the first goon has his back to the window. In the next panel, he's being hit from the front and there are two goons in front of him, tripping over furniture, even though there is no room for anyone or anything in front of the window, according to what's in panel 1. It also bothers me that we never get a full shot of the room.
The page prior to this (click here to view) doesn't have one .It also has one of the goons holding the girl's hands behind her back. What happened to that guy? Is he the one in black a few feet back and pulling the gun? Actually, no. Now I'm looking at that page , that guy had a turtleneck. But now he's gone from the sequence altogether? WTH? In the sequence, none of the goons' appearances (except Goon #1's) are really established. The guy in the black suit is not present in the first page. Instead there is a goon in silhouette with a tommy-gun who doesn't appear on the second page. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it. In that first page, I feel that first panel is squandered showing the Moth in flight. That space could have been used to establish the hostage scene and set up a more effective rescue sequence.
Edited by Paulo Pereira on 02 August 2008 at 12:32pm
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Anthony Frail
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 October 2007
Posts: 960
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| Posted: 02 August 2008 at 9:52am | IP Logged | 9
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While any of these gripes against Rude's work are perfectly legitimate, I
wonder if they aren't relatively picky.
Disney was quoted as saying, "I don't make films for critics; I'll take my
chances with the general public."
There's a concept in stand up called "playing to the back of the room" in
which a comedian ignores the audience and instead tries to impress the
other comedians.
I suppose my point is that the readers are the audience and I'd be
surprised to learn that the audience who so willingly accepts the Rob
Liefelds of the world would have these same problems-- it's a deadline
driven industry and an artist is doing several illustrations per comic book
page.
EDITED TO ADD:
Furthermore, when you look at what your audience responds to and how
it often isn't what other artists respond to, who do you think the artist
has an obligation to? If a comic book artist's job is to sell comic books
and entertain his or her audience, who then is doing their job best?
Edited by Anthony Frail on 02 August 2008 at 9:54am
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Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006
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| Posted: 02 August 2008 at 11:32am | IP Logged | 10
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QUOTE:
Disney was quoted as saying, "I don't make films for critics; I'll take my
chances with the general public." |
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I think that's a different discussion. Disney was talking more about subject matter than storytelling techniques.
QUOTE:
There's a concept in stand up called "playing to the back of the room" in
which a comedian ignores the audience and instead tries to impress the
other comedians. |
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Wouldn't Toth be another "comedian?"
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Knut Robert Knutsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006
Posts: 7374
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| Posted: 02 August 2008 at 11:42am | IP Logged | 11
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"I think that's a different discussion. Disney was talking more about subject matter than storytelling techniques."
Yeah. Disney was known to work very hard to plan through every single scene of his films. Composition, storytelling etc. If something didn't work he'd cut mercilessly and he insisted on training his people to be the best. One of the reasons he was on the verge of bankruptcy for most of his life was his attention to detail and quality. In terms of craft he didn't appreciate shortcuts.
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Michael Retour
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 932
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| Posted: 02 August 2008 at 11:48am | IP Logged | 12
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Who cares why the characters moved? I think the page works quite nicely.
Frankly, I believe you're making invalid criticisms.
I could take a page by Jack Kirby and show you inaccuracies but does it work? Heck yes. Kirby would draw costumes different all the time.
For me, Rude is doing some of his best work today. I give him a lot for starting his own company, doing hand lettering, having a letter's page and being such a versatile artist.
Have you, or have you not, ever seen his paintings? Not just the covers he does but the other paintings? Have you seen the Flesk book on Rude? Page through it.
I think both examples of Moth pages are near perfection. They accomplish what a comic page should for me.
I'd love to hear what Toth says about Rude now as this critique is from 1986. Toth would not even have wasted his time on Rude if Rude wasn't so good.
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Topic Closed)
