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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133139
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Posted: 28 December 2007 at 10:02am | IP Logged | 1
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Sure, in a superhero book, But the superheroes should be AGAINST it.
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Bruce Buchanan Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 14 June 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4797
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Posted: 28 December 2007 at 10:32am | IP Logged | 2
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I don't blame the current writers for "not letting go" as much as I blame the original decision 25+ years ago to make Hank Pym a wife-beater.
Let's face it - domestic violence is a serious issue and I can understand why the other heroes wouldn't be able to trust Hank ever again. The problem was in making Hank an abuser in the first place. Subsequent writers, including JB, did an admirable job in trying to rehab the character, but the seeds were already planted.
Here's a thought: Why didn't Hank just threaten to hit Jan in that story, then stop himself when he realizes "Oh my God! What am I doing?" You still get across the plot point that Hank is having a mental breakdown without having him actually cross the line of doing something that will forever tarnish his character.
Edited by Bruce Buchanan on 28 December 2007 at 10:32am
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Peter Svensson Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 30 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 1470
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Posted: 28 December 2007 at 10:35am | IP Logged | 3
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If my memory serves, wasn't the idea of Hank beating Janet done because Shooter wanted to permanently turn Hank into a villain? If so, he succeeded.
At this point, I'm afraid there's no redeeming the character short of a total reboot. That Hank Pym has mental instabilities and once beat his wife is now the main element of his characterization. Just as Iron Man is now just a recovering alcoholic. And no matter how hard other writers try to redeem them (Busiek busted his butt off to make both viable heroes again, only to have the next creative teams ignore his work completely) they get treated as if that's the only thing they've ever done.
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Victor Rodgers Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 26 December 2004 Posts: 3508
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Posted: 28 December 2007 at 10:47am | IP Logged | 4
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Let's face it - domestic violence is a serious issue and I can understand why the other heroes wouldn't be able to trust Hank ever again. The problem was in making Hank an abuser in the first place. Subsequent writers, including JB, did an admirable job in trying to rehab the character, but the seeds were already planted.
******
1. That was the least of the bad things Hank did in the story. He also shot a surrendering villian in the back and intentionally built a killer robot only he could disarm. All just to boost his self esteem.
2. The story was successfully ignored for years and Hank functioned fine. It was not til recent times writers kept digging up this skeleton. Its not like where Iron Man was a drunk off and on for a decade.
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Mike Bunge Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 10 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1335
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Posted: 28 December 2007 at 11:04am | IP Logged | 5
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1. If a man, in a moment of extreme emotional distress, hits his loved one one time...does that make him irredeemably evil? I seem to recall Peter Parker smacking MJ during the Clone Saga.
2. Everyone focuses on Hank, but it seems to me that another element to the story was the way Janet responded to Hank's implosion, making her into a stronger character.
3. I wonder if anything anyone is doing at Marvel today, no matter how "kewl" and cutting edge, will have as much impact on the readers as Shooter's story did? Frankly, no matter what guys like Bendis and Millar do...they never seem to make much of an emotional impression on their audience, even their fans.
Mike
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Victor Rodgers Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 26 December 2004 Posts: 3508
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Posted: 28 December 2007 at 11:07am | IP Logged | 6
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1. If a man, in a moment of extreme emotional distress, hits his loved one one time...does that make him irredeemably evil? I seem to recall Peter Parker smacking MJ during the Clone Saga.
*****
Peter was in the middle of fighting Ben Reilley and MJ tried to seperate him. Out of reflex he knocked her across the room. Not exactly the same as what Hank did.
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 35895
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Posted: 28 December 2007 at 11:07am | IP Logged | 7
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Haven't read the current NEW AVENGERS in quite some time, so someone please help me here; sounds like Bendis! has brought Hank Pym, the wife beater, back to the fore. How and why?
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Victor Rodgers Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 26 December 2004 Posts: 3508
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Posted: 28 December 2007 at 11:12am | IP Logged | 8
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Last time I read Mighty Avengers Hank had put back on the Ant Man costume to fight Ultron. He was as well written as could be expected in the current enviorment.
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Bruce Buchanan Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 14 June 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4797
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Posted: 28 December 2007 at 11:23am | IP Logged | 9
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See, I see the Hank Pym/domestic violence and the Tony Stark/alcoholism storylines as being completely different.
Alcoholism is a weakness and a problem, sure. But it's not evil and being an alcoholic didn't make Tony Stark a bad guy. No, I don't think Tony Stark's alcoholism should constantly be harped upon, but I had no problem with the "Demon in a Bottle" storyline, particularly since Tony was shown to battle and overcome his problem, like a hero should.
Beating your wife, on the other hand, is an inexcusable act of violence. It's something that a hero should never do under any circumstances.
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Scott McKeeve Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 11 November 2007 Posts: 835
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Posted: 28 December 2007 at 11:53am | IP Logged | 10
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"Alcoholism is a weakness and a problem, sure. But it's not evil and being an alcoholic didn't make Tony Stark a bad guy. No, I don't think Tony Stark's alcoholism should constantly be harped upon, but I had no problem with the "Demon in a Bottle" storyline, particularly since Tony was shown to battle and overcome his problem, like a hero should.
Beating your wife, on the other hand, is an inexcusable act of violence. It's something that a hero should never do under any circumstances."
They are two sides of the same coin. And therein lies the problem. Hank's abuse is explicitly linked to a mental breakdown but for some reason Tony Stark (and Carol Danvers) get a free pass from writers, editors and fandom and Hank is portrayed as a simpering, unstable coward. Most abuse is not like this.
In everyone of these types of social problems, volition pays a part. Ask any person in recovery. If that is the case then so is redemption. In Marvel's inconsistent handling of Hank Pym, they've ruined a great character and hero.
I think a much more interesting take on Pym would have been if Marvel had never introduced mental instability and later domestic abuse. Instead, have Ultron commit an unspeakable act of murder and have Hank, as Ultron's creator, have to deal with that. The moral, stable hero who in his attempt to help humanity creates something that will plague his conscience forever.
Hubris is a wonderful, tragic flaw. Hey, it worked for Shakespeare enough.
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Paulo Pereira Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 24 April 2006 Posts: 15539
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Posted: 28 December 2007 at 12:34pm | IP Logged | 11
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QUOTE:
Haven't read the current NEW AVENGERS in quite some time, so someone please help me here; sounds like Bendis! has brought Hank Pym, the wife beater, back to the fore. How and why? |
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I'm not sure but it may have been Chuck Austen. It was a point that was brought up during the "Lionheart" arc.
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 35895
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Posted: 28 December 2007 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | 12
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Ah. He of the literalizing Nightcrawler to actually be a hellspawn/demon by having Satan mate with Mystique. Gotcha.
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