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Brian Miller
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Posted: 13 March 2007 at 7:49pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

I kinda dig the Collins years. Haven't even tried to start on the Gabriel stuff. So much, so little time...

My favorite tracks are "Land of Confusion" and "Mama".

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Kevin Hagerman
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Posted: 13 March 2007 at 8:03pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I miss Steve Hackett a lot when I listen to post-Hackett Genesis.  I think Mike Rutherford, a very good guitarist, didn't assert himself often.  Genesis by 1978 were three people doing five jobs, which meant Phil had two instruments, Mike two, and Tony one - but in implementation, Mike was basically using two instruments but still had only one voice.

I don't think Tony Banks was a domineering type at all - I know he and Hackett had conflicting personalities, but musically I think Hackett was quite content to be subtle.  And that worked for him, because when he DID flex his guitar muscles the impact was more pronounced.  But Mike had trouble rising to the occasion on guitar - and when you're almost always subtle, a better term for it is weak.  He was a major WRITER, of course (damn, it's time to listen to "Man of Our Times" again), and from his solo work I think he was responsible for a lot of the vocal arrangements (the a capella singing at the end of the "Invisible Touch" video?  That was Mike's doing or I'll be damned.).  And his solo stuff shows he can play a mean guitar (after "Man of Our Times" I'll segue into "Hopelessly Waiting in Line" - one of the best musical moments for any Genesis member, whether solo or in the group - it's Mike's equivalent of Phil's drums on "In The Air Tonight")

When I saw the credits for Invisible Touch and Tony was credited with synth bass, I remember thinking Jaysus, Mike's running out of things to do.  Fortunately, it was just for "Land of Confusion", one of the guitar highlights for that album.

 

As for Chester, I think Mike and Tony didn't want at that point to have a third full member.  It was a business decision.  Or I'm wrong and full of poo.

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Gene Best
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Posted: 14 March 2007 at 1:56am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

The one thing I alway noticed post-Duke was the lack of a real guitarist. After Steve left there was no-one there to push the band forward into a musical direction. All the other elements were there, but there was no distinctive, driving guitar voice to bring it all together.

**

Actually, I think Rutherford had a very distinct guitar style/sound - it was just lame.

That wasn't always the case - I found his work on And Then There Were Three (see: Burning Rope, Down and Out) , Duke (Behind the Lines, Man of Our Times, Duke's Travels/Duke's End) and Abacab (title track, Dodo, Like It or Not) actually quite good. 

For the last three albums, however, his sound was this weak and tinny, and his parts were predictable and uninspired (muted arpeggios, finger picking a chord and letting it sustain, etc.)   Having said that, there are some nice guitar moments here and there, but nothing that gives me chills like the guitar solo on Firth of Fifth.

 

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Kevin Hagerman
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Posted: 14 March 2007 at 2:28am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Lame?  Ooh, that's too harsh.  I need to walk that one off.

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Kevin Hagerman
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Posted: 14 March 2007 at 9:03am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Favorite Hackett moments

  • The end of "Musical Box"
  • The end of "Fountain of Salmacis"
  • "Ikhnaton and Itsacon and Their Band of Merry Men"
  • The end of "Supper's ready" (especially live, although the ending on the box set is a HORRID overdub that I cannot listen to, preferring the boot I have of the same show)
  • "The Firth of Fifth" solo
  • "The Battle of Epping Forest", especially the end (no one ends a song like Steve!)
  • "Fly on a Windshield"
  • Whatever the hell he is doing during the "..wasted wings..." lyric of "In the Cage"
  • "Hairless Heart"
  • The muscular parts of "Counting Out Time".  But other parts?  I dunno sometimes... (Is that a banjo?)
  • "Squonk"
  • "In That Quiet Earth"
  • "Inside and Out" (How the hell do you cut this song?)


Edited by Kevin Hagerman on 26 March 2008 at 7:00am
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Gene Best
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Posted: 14 March 2007 at 11:51am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Great stuff, Kevin!

If you can, catch some footage from 72-74.  It's a revelation to see what Hackett was actually playing during some of those songs - truly, I thought Banks was doing some of that atmospheric stuff on keys.

(I'll see if I can locate some on YouTube.)

Re: the "lame" comment ... sorry, I just think Rutherford's sound and style from Genesis (1983) on didn't have any balls.  (And, as I said, was sadly predictable.)

BTW, as a bassist, I think Rutherford has always been profoundly underrated - he had an incredible ear for creating inspired bass lines that held down the bottom end while being wonderfully melodic.  Examples:  Blood on the Rooftops, Please Don't Ask, Get'em Out By Friday, Firth of Fifth ......... I could on and on and on ....

 

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Kevin Hagerman
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Posted: 14 March 2007 at 12:22pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Yeah - I'm working on a similar post about Rutherford and it has a lot of bass stuff on it, like "Can-Utility and the Coastliners".  Breathtaking.
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Brian Tait
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Posted: 14 March 2007 at 7:02pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Gotta agree about Rutherford.
Not so great when it comes to the guitar, but underated when it comes to the bass.
But how about the use of the bass pedals.
Almost anything on Trick of the Tail, Firth of Fifth, Afterglow, Cinema Show, Supper's Ready, The Musical Box intro, and Dukes Travels.

Those damn pedals can make the whole house vibrate if you give it enough volume.
I had the family wondering if it was thundering out. They couldn't figure out what the rumbling was.
They couldn't hear the music but they could feel the bass pedals.
Fantastic.
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Brian Tait
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Posted: 14 March 2007 at 7:08pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Actually, I think Rutherford had a very distinct guitar style/sound - it was just lame.

That wasn't always the case - I found his work on And Then There Were Three (see: Burning Rope, Down and Out) , Duke (Behind the Lines, Man of Our Times, Duke's Travels/Duke's End) and Abacab (title track, Dodo, Like It or Not) actually quite good. 

************************************************************ *************************************

I think his work on ATTWT and Duke were still very much Hackett influenced. I've often wondered if any of the tracks on those albums may have originated from earlier albums. Especially the Duke suite. After Duke any distinctive guitar sounds were gone. As I said, I think that is the sound we old timers miss.

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Kevin Hagerman
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Posted: 14 March 2007 at 7:39pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Favorite Rutherford bass moments:

  • "Harold The Barrel" - The bass really makes the tune
  • That kinda rolling bass line through "Fountain of Salmacis"
  • The instrumental section of "Can-Utility and the Coastliners" - actually, everybody is grooving SO well there.  I never could understand why Gabriel got all the credit for dressing up, singing a couple of lines, and then letting that awesome band do the heavy lifting.
  • "Apocalypse in 9/8".  Say no more.
  • "The Knife" from the first live album
  • (How pathetic is it I'm editing posts no one is ever gonna go back and read?)"The Chamber of 32 Doors"


Edited by Kevin Hagerman on 26 March 2008 at 7:03am
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Gene Best
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Posted: 15 March 2007 at 6:59am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Brian -

Ah yes ... the never-to-be-duplicated Moog Taurus Bass Pedals ... a moment of silence, everyone ...

The last verse of Squonk inspired me to finally buy a set ... ironically, I bought them from Duane Steurmer ... Daryl's brother!

To this day, the sound of Taurus pedals gives me chills!  :)

And totally agree with you re: guitar sounds, except that I really did enjoy some of Rutherford's guitar work on Abacab.

Kevin -

I believe that on Apocolypse in 9/8, Rutherford is playing mostly guitar throughout, kicking in the bass pedals when the big organ chords come in after the main solo (just before the breakdown).  I watched some 74 footage of Supper's Ready the other day, and seem to recall that ... although, he may have changed that up a bit by Genesis in Concert and Seconds Out

I could be totally wrong on both counts, though.

BTW, another great Rutherford bass track(and I hear the groans already) is No Reply At All.  Say what you want about the song, but it's possibly the last GREAT track by MR the bassist.

 

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Gene Best
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Posted: 15 March 2007 at 7:09am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Okay, I just went back and reviewed some of the other Abacab-era sessions (including the studio tracks that appeared on the US-version of Three Sides Live), and I need to give honorable mention to the bass lines in Paperlate and You Might Recall ... great choices by MR that really served the songs.

As an aside, I remember how commercial these songs sounded like a complete sell-out back in 1982, but now, the harmonic structures are deceptively complex ... quite good.

 



Edited by Gene Best on 15 March 2007 at 7:10am
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