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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 20 August 2018 at 9:24am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Saw some complaints online about how often Brock Lesnar defends the WWE Title. 

You know, I see their point, but think about how it was years ago. How many times did Bret Hart actually defend his WWF Title on 'free' TV? How often did we get to see Hulk Hogan actually defend the WWF Title on 'free' TV?

Isn't Brock simply carrying on a trend?
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John Popa
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Posted: 20 August 2018 at 9:43am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Brock's carrying on a trend but it's something that the audience that started watching in the late 90's, which is a lot of the audience, isn't trained to understand. When they started watching wrestling, the big titles were defended regularly on TV, because WCW and WWF were fighting over TV ratings.

Hogan did defend the belt on TV with some frequency when he first won the title. I remember him having matches with Greg Valentine and David Schultz especially.

In the really old days, there was really only one TV main event and it almost never went to a finish. The goal wasn't TV, the goal was to get people to go to live events where the money was for the promoter. That's not remotely the business model WWE is using today. Live events are profitable, but are a minor aspect of the company's financial success.

Edited by John Popa on 20 August 2018 at 9:58am
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 20 August 2018 at 11:53am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

You're right, John. It is about historical context. 

Given the style Brock utilises nowadays, I think fans may well get bored if he was defending the belt in short, sweet contests weekly. He is akin to a special attraction, and I don't mind that, myself.
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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 20 August 2018 at 2:19pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Going back to the subject of Dusty Rhodes, I don't think he could have ever done better than he did in the WWF. Vince clearly didn't see the appeal, or Dusty never would have ended up wearing polka dots. If he had worked as a heel, he'd have quickly been squashed by Hogan, then probably have ended up a JTTS (Jobber To The Stars).

And Dusty's legendary 'Hard Times' promo is still one of the best I've ever heard.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 27 August 2018 at 6:32am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Worth a read:

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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 28 August 2018 at 9:10am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I love it! I'm super interested in seeing who will become the National champion. A local promotion had Nick Aldis defend the NWA last year and it was awesome to meet him and tell him that I enjoy how they're breathing new life into the NWA. I just ordered All In yesterday and while part of me is rooting for Cody to get the belt, I believe Aldis has done a lot to make that a viable championship again.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 28 August 2018 at 1:01pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Yes. I agree. I've been following the progress, too.

Now if we can only resurrect the AWA...
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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 28 August 2018 at 1:01pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Cody should get the belt at some point - and have a healthy run with it - but I'm not sure it should happen just yet.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 29 August 2018 at 4:30am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Trivia: name the WWF event which featured eight matches, five of which were won by heels.
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 29 August 2018 at 6:28am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

You've got me stumped on that one, Robbie.

I agree that Cody should win the belt but I wonder how that would factor in with his Ring of Honor contract. One problem I foresee is Cody booking himself to win the belt since All In is basically his baby (along with the Bucks of course). Then again, Dusty booked himself to go over a good bit so maybe it isn't that much of a criticism.  
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 29 August 2018 at 11:06am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

If folk remain stumped, I'll reveal the answer soon! 
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John Popa
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Posted: 29 August 2018 at 12:04pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Not sure on the event off the top of my head, but, as I mentioned years ago, the first Georgia Championship Wrestling show I ever went to, the heels won every match!
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 29 August 2018 at 12:26pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Okay, it was...

...Battle Royal at the Albert Hall (1991). Spoilers naturally...

Bulldog won the battle royal. Prior to that, he pinned Barbarian in a match. And the Legion of Doom beat Power & Glory. 

But, shockingly, the first five matches featured heel victories (Nasty Boys beat Rockers, Ric Flair beat Tito Santana, Earthquake beat Big Boss Man, Mountie beat Texas Tornado, Undertaker beat Jim Duggan). 

Some wrestling writer found fault with it, claiming it deflated the audience. It didn't appear to. Thing is, whilst it was always nice for an event to end with the good guys winning, if heels won all the other matches, well as long as they were enjoyable, that's all that mattered.

I never really got hung up on wins/losses, not in a ratio sense. If a dozen or so matches on a card featured heel victories, but were GREAT matches, that is all that mattered to me!
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John Popa
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Posted: 29 August 2018 at 2:24pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Heel wins should be designed to bring people back for the next show, which is why heels should never really win clean. The heel wins dirty, people come back next month to see the babyface get revenge. The heel wins clean, well, he's proven he's better, so why have another match?
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 29 August 2018 at 4:06pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Do you think a clean win is fine, though, if, say, a monster like Earthquake squashes a face who is much, much smaller? It makes sense to me.
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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 29 August 2018 at 11:13pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

That definitely makes sense.

What I hate moreso than a heel winning clean when they shouldn't, or heels winning most of the matches on a show, is when a show has every title on the line (including tag team) successfully defended. At least one belt should change hands, or why even bother having them all defended?

Also hate it when a lot of matches on the card have the pin be by roll up. TNA used to do that a lot, and I believe there was at least one WWE PPV in the last few years that had it happen in more than one match.




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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 30 August 2018 at 4:56am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

I'm trying to think of the first WWF PPV that ended with a heel win.

It's a bit of a grey area.

Technically, Andre the Giant's team won over Hulk Hogan's team at 1987 SURVIVOR SERIES, but it was a Pyrrhic victory given Hogan, if I recall, came back, saw Andre off - and then celebrated.

Undertaker beat Hogan for the WWF Title at Survivor Series '91, but it didn't go on last so was it technically the main event? The card ended with the Legion of Doom victorious.

WrestleMania IX? Sure, its main event ended with Yokozuna defeating Bret Hart for the WWF Title? But the quasi-main event was Hogan/Yokozuna - and the card ended with a Hogan win. 

The above three examples, whatever the semantics, closed with a babyface in the ring.

And then there's Montreal. Who really won/lost there, semantics aside? 
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 31 August 2018 at 10:05am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

Heel wins need the manager to interfere, a foot on the ropes, or a pull on the tights. The only time a heel should go over clean is if they're a monster or you're setting them up for a bigger (on the card) opponent.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 31 August 2018 at 12:17pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

I'd agree with that logic. Monsters, like Earthquake and Undertaker, are a different kettle of fish, but I think others (e.g. IRS) needed that managerial interference, pull on the tights, etc. 
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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 31 August 2018 at 4:19pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

I really miss managers. And valets.


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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 31 August 2018 at 8:51pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

One of the things I dislike about other companies following the lead with WWE: no managers. The last ROH manager that comes to mind is Truth Martini or Caprice Coleman but they didn't last. MLW seems to be trying to play around with Col. Robert Parker. We can probably all think of someone today who is just missing that heat from a manager to be a big time heel. Imagine the Revival with a manager who gets them unfair wins or Nakamura with a heel mouthpiece. Miz improved when Maryse came into the picture with him (as well as the Miztourage), Zelana Vega was the missing piece that Andrade Cien Almas needed, Lana and Rusev...the valet is very effective. I'd prefer a manager with a not so great talker though so heels like Samoa Joe and Kevin Owens really don't need one. 
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 01 September 2018 at 9:18am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

Absolutely!

I loved the British Bulldog, but if I'm honest, I don't think he was the greatest promo guy (face or heel), but when he was part of Camp Cornette, the ever-talented Jim Cornette was an effective mouthpiece.

I don't think Brock Lesnar has always been the most effective promo guy, so am glad he has had a mouthpiece at times, too.


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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 01 September 2018 at 5:11pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

One wrestler who should have never ever spoken a word, because it is hard to take him as a serious threat due to his voice:

Bobby Lashley. 
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John Harrison
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Posted: 03 September 2018 at 10:55am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

So All In had to be considered an insane success tho for the most part it seemed more like an ROH supercard but my wild guess is ROH handled a lot of the legality behind the scenes insurance bonding etc the show itself seemed like a lot indy shows with repeating sequences like tables being used on nearly every other match and Jericho showing up felt like it had just been done in much the same way.  I do think Cody winning the NWA title brings a legacy and legitimacy back to that organization which I haven't really followed much since The Seven Levels Hate documentary.  They had too much in my opinion goin on the crowd died off in parts for what was almost six hours of wrestling and there was obvious timing issues but for a first time promotion and the attendance they pulled along w Starrcast and the revenue they had w sponsors and fite tv rather amazing accomplishment.  

I wonder if they do another show and they prob will if Vince will run against it like he did in the old Crockett days or will he let it breathe and live because the competition is good for the industry
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 04 September 2018 at 9:54am | IP Logged | 25 post reply

I felt the intensity of the Hangman/Janela match kind of deflated when Joey Ryan was resurrected and Page was carried out of the ring by the penises. I realize that it pays off one of the Being The Elite story lines and my view of it is probably skewed by how ridiculous I feel the Joey Ryan character is but it kind of took me out of the moment. I felt the Bucks match was rushed (and if I believe the internet, it was because Scurll and Okada went 12 minutes over) and being a Bucks fan, I was hoping for more. Other than that, I felt All In was exactly what it needed to be. I originally felt that this should just be a one-off but now I'm ready for it annually.
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