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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 03 November 2006 at 8:35am | IP Logged | 1  

This morning a thought flittered thru my mind -- not for the first time -- concerning a difference in comicbook artists of the THEN and the NOW.

We'll set aside basic levels of skill and professionalism for the most part, and focus here on one element in particular. And that element is the oft stated desire of so many artists to "make (their) mark" upon the existing characters to which they are assigned.

Back this up a notch. When I got started in this Business, the shadows of the actual creators of the characters were still, in many cases, long and dark upon them. Altho several other artists had done FANTASTIC FOUR before I got there, for instance, when one said "FF" one thought "Kirby". Same with Ditko on Spider-Man. At DC, tho the creators had mostly faded as far as their artistic influence went, there were still some people who had left their own indelible mark -- Curt Swan was Superman. Neal Adams was Batman. And so on.

(What's interesting in these latter cases, is that while these artists and others undoubtedly left their "mark", most, even all of them started out toeing the company line. Swan came from Shuster's shadow, and his early work was a lot less individualized than it came to be. Even Adams' early Batman work is "on model", drawing the Batman who was in the books at the time, and only over a span of several issues increasingly exerting his own influence.)

Therein lies a key point I am addressing here. Stylistic differences notwithstanding, there was, in bygone days, a much stronger desire, on the parts of the artists, to keep the characters looking like themselves. This was encouraged by the Companies, sometimes with a sledgehammer, as with the redrawing of Kirby's Superman faces in JIMMY OLSEN and elsewhere, sometimes just for fun, as with Wally Wood inking the Daredevil figures in a guest appearance of that character in Kirby's FF. When I joined Marvel, in the mid/late 70s, one of John Romita's jobs, as Art Director, was to redraw faces that seemed off-model.

Today, however, it seems that the rock-star mentality which had infected comics has given us a "generation" of artists whose first instinct is to "make their mark", and, indeed, it is this that is now encouraged by the Companies. The characters have taken a back seat to the "talent", and the artists now approach a new assignment with the stated intent of showing how they would have imagined these characters. The result: if a character -- Superman, Spider-Man, Batman, etc -- appears in more than one title, we will find at least that many different interpretations of that character. (I have commented elsewhere about flipping thru a Superman comic a few years back and finding myself wondering if the lead character had been replaced, as part of some ongoing story, with an Asian teenager.)

The clear and present danger of this, of course, is that selling the talent instead of the character is a sure way to guarantee diminished sales. It mirrors the outraged reaction of Ann Rice fans when Tom Cruise was cast as Lestat. The Producer of the movie dismissed these complaintes, noting that there were many more Cruise fans than there were Rice fans. In this case, we can (hopefully) assume that Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, etc each have more fans than any single artist might have. That there would be more people lining up to buy a Superman book, for the character, than, say, an ALL-STAR book for the artist. That, in fact, given the finicky nature of many fans, having different artists present different versions of the characters is a sure way to guarantee at least a portion of the audience will reject one title in favor of another.

This might be a core reason in explaining why the sales of "best selling" titles these days are individually much lower than the "best sellers" of the pre-DSM/speculator days, but often add up to those sales. So that, for instance, this months SUPERMAN, ACTION, and whatever other Superman titles might be out there, give a total sales count of around what SUPERMAN alone sold in the 1960s (or thereabouts).

It comes down to the fanzine mentality again. This "cool artist" is doing his version of some character, and it may have little to do with the "snapshot" of that character most people -- especially potential new readers -- might be carrying in their heads.

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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 03 November 2006 at 8:47am | IP Logged | 2  

Perhaps movies is not the best example, because studios tend to promote the lead actors above everything else. 
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George Peter Gatsis
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Posted: 03 November 2006 at 8:57am | IP Logged | 3  

I think whats going on is the sliding purchase...

ex. There are 100 people buying issue 1 of X comc and as each issue begins to slide by a Y percentage... after 4 or 5 issues of X comic, the sale is not as much...

cycling thru different artists and boasting said artists is an attempt to KEEP the Y percentage from sliding too much...

Sure, sure... in the yesteryear, that wasn't happening... that was then, this is the world now... everyone is re-inventing, re-issuing from issue #1 all over again to keep the Y percentage up...

in todays market, that is the only simple way of doing it... (this concept is applied not only in comics, but fastfood, toys, electronics... etc...) any other attempt will lead to thinking...


Edited by George Peter Gatsis on 03 November 2006 at 8:59am
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Dennis Maloney
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Posted: 03 November 2006 at 9:22am | IP Logged | 4  

Very good point JB. I find that I will buy a book because a particular artist, yourself for example, is drawing it but if I don't like the story I will stop buying it. I do actually read the books and not just look at the pretty pictures.. I agree with you about artists trying to make their mark. When I pick up a book I want to recognize the character out of costume. A good recent example of your point is Mike McKone on FF. He's an artist I will follow even though all his characters look basically the same. Anyway in a recent issue Peter Parker made an appearance-at least I think it was him and that's just not right.
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Mark Waldman
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Posted: 03 November 2006 at 10:12am | IP Logged | 5  

I agree with all of that, JB.  I also think comics lost their fun aspect and are more written and drawn for clinically depressed sorts.  I feel in the art that the artists are more interested in shock and awe than good storytelling, anatomy and basic principles past artists knew as necessary.  It used to take some time to read through a comic book since the thing actually had story in it, and more than one or two panels per page.  Now, just some exagerrated pose and two small bubbles of dialogue - and onto the next page with similar "structure." 

And again, you're right - not many current artists would want to draw characters as they used to look.  That would be "uncool."  Sigh.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 November 2006 at 10:22am | IP Logged | 6  

...not many current artists would want to draw characters as they used to look.  That would be "uncool." 

***

That's most definitely an aspect of this. And it puzzles me. Perhaps it's because so many artists (and writers, and editors) currently in the business would rather be doing just about anything else (as long as it was in Hollywood) the mere fact of doing Spider-Man (to name but one) is not "cool" enough.

Now, for me, getting assigned to MARVEL TEAM-UP was one of the high points of my career. When Shooter offered it to me I actually said "You mean the MARVEL TEAM-UP with Spider-Man in it?" because I could not believe I was being handed anything to do with one of the coolest characters out there. And when I started drawing the book, it was all about trying to find Spider-Man, and not trying to show everybody what I thought Spider-Man should be.

In many ways, this is parallel to my objection to the cutesy-poo nicknames for the characters. To this day, I feel a small thrill course thru me when I type Batman, or Spider-Man, or any of the names in full. It's just so friggin' cool!

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Robert Carolgees
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Posted: 03 November 2006 at 10:23am | IP Logged | 7  

This might be a core reason in explaining why the sales of "best selling" titles these days are individually much lower than the "best sellers" of the pre-DSM/speculator days, but often add up to those sales. So that, for instance, this months SUPERMAN, ACTION, and whatever other Superman titles might be out there, give a total sales count of around what SUPERMAN alone sold in the 1960s (or thereabouts).


But isn't that just looking at comics in isolation rather than as part of the wider media context.

I've never been convinced that comics would sell that much differently even if things were done entirely differently - even ringtones of all things are part of the competition for consumer dollars!
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Aaron Smith
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Posted: 03 November 2006 at 10:24am | IP Logged | 8  

This "making a mark" has been really annoying to me in a lot of ways, as I've noticed it becoming more prevalent over the last 20 years or so. Unfortunately, it seems that more and more writers who rely on forcing "shocking changes" onto long-standing characters are finding all the work and getting all the attention. I, personally, don't see the appeal of this "character-rape" that has become so fashionable. As a reader, I want to read about characters who act like the who they are. As a writer, when I dream of writing characters that I've loved since I was a comics reading kid, or when I occasionally do write these characters for practice, I want to write them as they are supposed to be. I have no desire to "re-define" the Fantastic Four or Captain America. I would love to write good stories about them...as they are, not as I think would "shock" the readers. It has happened on a few occasions that I've had a thought like "Wouldn't it be interesting if Batman did this (completely odd and out of character thing)"  But you know what? I wouldn't make him do that even if i was given the opportunity by DC. If an idea extends past the boundaries of proper characterization...and you really can't resist using it, thereis a simple solution. Create a new character! Come up with a concept that fits the idea. Want to write a story about a dysfunctional superhero family? Great. Have fun. But don't do it with the FF! It doesn't fit. If a publisher is so sure the writer or artist will draw the audience, as opposed to the characters, then let them play with these "marks" and distortions on someone other than the icons that have managed to remain more or less in character for long periods of time.

   Wow..I really started rambling. I'm done.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 November 2006 at 10:29am | IP Logged | 9  

I've never been convinced that comics would sell that much differently even if things were done entirely differently...

***

That's a bit like saying you've never been entirely convinced William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy used to be in a STAR TREK series. The history of the industry demonstrates clearly that comics have sold differently when things were done entirely differently, and shown that everything that has taken the industry away from the traditional approaches to selling the product has, in the end, resulted in selling less of the product. This goes all the way back to the decision to keep the price at 10¢, and spirals faster and faster downward from there.

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Michael Kane
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Posted: 03 November 2006 at 10:33am | IP Logged | 10  

the comic book magazine business ( and those that run it) are constantly
looking for ways to stimulate their characters. To make them more
appealling. I am a firm believer in being somewhat on model with the
characters. Disney Animation keeps mickey mouse looking the same no
matter who draws him.Even the CG version looks like it matches the model
sheet.
All Artists draw differently, and all artists want their version of the character
on the cover of a cereal box or a poster.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 November 2006 at 10:34am | IP Logged | 11  

"Wouldn't it be interesting if Batman did this (completely odd and out of character thing)"

***

That's precisely the fanzine mentality I have been referring to lately. The approach to writing these stories, especially superhero stories, has always begun with "Wouldn't it be interesting if…' That's pretty much the whole point, in fact. But what seems to have slipped away in recent years, as the thinking has become more fan-like and less, yes, professional, is the important second part of that question -- the part where somebody says "Yes, it would be interesting -- but where would we go from there?" So you can rip out Spider-Man's eye and put him in spider-armor and have him reveal his identity to the world -------- but where do you go from there?

Short-term thinking has become the rule.

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Aaron Smith
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Posted: 03 November 2006 at 10:39am | IP Logged | 12  

Thats exactly why I avoid following through on those thoughts like I would avoid the plague!  And it has two advantages. First, it makes me work harder to keep any established characters on track and in character, and second, it sometimes shoots off into new ideas that can take on a life of their own and become entirely mine.

    I've noticed the short-term thinking too. It was the first thing that occured to me when I heard about the "identity revealing " story. Where do we go from here?  

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