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Teod Tomlinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 August 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1782
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| Posted: 02 July 2006 at 12:00pm | IP Logged | 1
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JB comes off as Grumpy sometimes. That is it! What is the big deal? Look at how those little naughty "ball" boys acted when they did the drive by trolling. We mocked them until they showed where they came from and we saw truly how sad some wannabe critics really are. Emery made note of the behavior JB is accused of is displayed ten-fold by some of these "critics". I think most of the time JB comes off as charming and interesting, then sometimes he seems a bit of a grump, is this enough "reason" to crucify him? He has passion for his opinion, again, what is the big deal?
Edited by Teod Tomlinson on 02 July 2006 at 12:02pm
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William McCormick
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 February 2006
Posts: 3297
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| Posted: 02 July 2006 at 12:04pm | IP Logged | 2
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Personally the entire idea of the Alan Moore book pisses me off because of the use of childrens characters. Whether or not it will change anything the original creators did is beside the point. I get the same feeling about this as when I see those Mickey Mouse stickers in truck window flipping people off. It just seems wrong and I cannot comprehend the kind of idiot who would think of those characters in that way.
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Darragh Greene
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 March 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1812
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| Posted: 02 July 2006 at 12:06pm | IP Logged | 3
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Robert White wrote:
I've heard frightening tales about Finnegan's
Wake... |
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I find Finnegans Wake hilarious; it's one of the funniest books I've
ever read; but the 'story' is slight, very slight. The raison d'etre of the
book is to explore the history and freeplay of language in the dreaming
subconscious of a Chapelizod publican. In fact, if you read the book
aloud in a Dublin accent, a lot of its mystery is resolved. However,
humour is subjective, and it's not everyone who'd enjoy this book. Indeed,
Joyce himself said that the ideal reader of the book would be one who
suffered from an ideal insomnia! Anyhow, whatever about Finnegans
Wake, I reiterate my thorough recommendation of Dubliners,
especially because it provides the blueprint and standard of all modern
short stories.
Robert White wrote:
How long can something as fundamentally
unhealthy and uncreative as deconstruction last as a "literary" fad? It's just
boring now. |
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While the term 'deconstruction' was coined by Jacques Derrida almost
forty years ago, although it seems he may have lifted it from Martin
Heidegger, the 'method' itself is much older. Indeed, it appears to have
been around as long as there's been storytelling and analytic discourse.
Certainly, 'deconstruction' is retrospectively evident in the work of the
Greek tragedians, Aeschylus, Sophocles and Euripides, all of whom use
traditional Greek myths analytically to criticise and comment on the
uncritical presuppositions of their day, as well as their contemporaries
the Sophists whose 'deconstructive' operations are especially in harmony
with the relativistic and nihilistic spirit of modern-day deconstructionists.
There is 'deconstruction' in the works of medieval authors, for example,
in Geoffrey Chaucer's House of Fame, and among Renaissance
authors, notably, Edmund Spenser in his Faerie Queene and even
Shakespeare in, for example, Troilus and Cressida!
'Deconstruction', whatever name it goes by, thus, is not a fad; it's a
method of analysis, an ironical critical turn, in art and thought, that runs
through the history of the Western artistic and intellectual tradition,
sometimes overtly, sometimes covertly, but always there, sceptical of all
metaphysics of presence, essence and objective truth. Unfortunately, it's
never going to go away forever even if after four decades of overt
operations, it's become very, very boring for us.
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John Mietus
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 9704
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| Posted: 02 July 2006 at 12:09pm | IP Logged | 4
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Darragh, I'm not going to claim any kind of mind-reading ability, but I'm
going to infer, given the context, that Robert meant "in comics."
Edited by John Mietus on 02 July 2006 at 12:09pm
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Matt Linton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 December 2005
Posts: 2022
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| Posted: 02 July 2006 at 12:16pm | IP Logged | 5
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I think the problem is that deconstruction (much like decompression) has been overused, and often by those who aren't talented. They're both just storytelling techniques, but they tend to be judged by the worst examples.
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Victor Rodgers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004
Posts: 3508
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| Posted: 02 July 2006 at 12:17pm | IP Logged | 6
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Ive been posting here for over sixteen months. Ive found John Byrne to be very helpful about answering any questions I have and being very nice while doing it. In fact, I've yet to have one bad experience dealing with a comicbook creator online.
Now here is something I dont get. Why would somebody continually read about or deal with a creator they seem to hate. I mean I really dislike Brian Bendis, thats why I stay away from his forums and website. It seems like some these guys have a crush or something.
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Andy Mokler
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 January 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2799
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| Posted: 02 July 2006 at 12:20pm | IP Logged | 7
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Okay, I guess it's going to be one of those "discussions". I don't know anything about the copyright laws that may or may not be infringed in this case. The book is being solicited and already published so I'm led to believe that it might be legal. Not absolutely. Not positively. But at least possibly.
I didn't see the Newsarama link so I don't really know the context of what was going on. I haven't read the actual story so I don't know if it's over the line or not. I do know there is plenty of Manga and European titles that skirt and cross the lines of consentual age(s) so I have to assume that it's the particular characters that is causing the problem in this particular case.
No, I wouldn't get it for a variety of reasons that I stated before. In your example, I'm sure that Marvel wouldn't allow anything Spider-Man related to be published, much less solicited with Previews. Second, you're implying that the story in question is about a sexual deviant/predator/criminal. I don't know that that's what the story is actually about.
Is it possible that the story may have been handled in a mature way? Aren't some of Shakespear's works about incest, young love, etc.? Not to say that Moore is comparable to any literary greats but I feel like his story is being judged for the wrong reasons. No, pedophilia shouldn't be encouraged or supported but I haven't seen the information that concludes this is what his story is about. I'm assuming that's what all the anger and opposition is based upon.
Has anyone out there actually read the story or at least know a little more about it? I mean, I don't even know what age the characters are in the book. Are they 12? That's obviously(I think) a little too young to be portraying sexual situations but what if they're 15? Isn't that when most kids start to become curious? Or is that even the issue? Joe and Darren both expressed their reasons and they were different. One was naked "kids" and the other was copyright infringement.
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Darragh Greene
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 March 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1812
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| Posted: 02 July 2006 at 12:21pm | IP Logged | 8
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Yes, John, I know he was referring to comics, specifically Moore's
deconstructive operations in Lost Girls; however, as is my wont, I
was thinking of the wider context, for deconstruction as a method has a
long history and its overt operations in our culture over the past forty
years have had ramifications for comics, the effects of which within the
sub-culture may seem endemic to some, but are really pandemic. As long
as deconstruction operates overtly in our wider culture, so shall it operate
in the comics sub-culture.
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Robert White
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4560
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| Posted: 02 July 2006 at 12:39pm | IP Logged | 9
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I hear what you're saying Darragh, and realize that deconstruction is a fundamental and important method of writing/critiquing literature, my problem lies in the application of that method to children's stories and superheroes. As adults, I'm sure we all understand the difference between ideals and the reality of those ideals.
Society needs to see behind the veil of things like organized religion and political bureaucracy, not behind the veil of Superman and Mickey Mouse.
It’s almost as if some people discover that “goodness” and “innocence” are the exceptions and not the rules (and that’s highly subjective), never recover from the shock, and spend the rest of their lives trying to tear down anything that presents itself as such, often blinded to the fact that some things really are what they appear to be.
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Tshombe Hamilton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 March 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 142
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| Posted: 02 July 2006 at 12:50pm | IP Logged | 10
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I don't think JB is a racist at all. He is more of a realist. One of the times that he opened my eyes to just how real he could be was in JBNM #6. Bremmer suggested to Hilltop that maybe they should open up the test subjects to Negros "because they breed like rabbits". To which Hilltop replied that he was not going to give such power to "monkeys" i realized that from the historical perspective this conversation took place in, it could have been a realistic converstion between a scientist and Hilltop whose racism just added more to his villany.
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Darragh Greene
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 March 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1812
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| Posted: 02 July 2006 at 12:55pm | IP Logged | 11
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Robert White wrote:
Society needs to see behind the veil of things like
organized religion and political bureaucracy, not behind the veil of
Superman and Mickey Mouse. |
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Deconstruction as a method espouses no values. That's why certain
of its critics accuse it of nihilism. Point is, a deconstructionist draws no
line between 'religion and politics' or whatever, on the one hand, and
'Superman and Mickey Mouse' or whatever, on the other; all cultural,
artistic or intellectual, 'givens' alike are a target for its critical operations.
How do you fight a method and its effects that have been engrained and
operative in our culture for millennia? Sure, it can be done, (Aristotle and
other eminent enemies of 'deconstruction' offer lines of resistence and
attack, aboveall in the rational method of dialectic), but it's a tough slog.
Molon labe!
Edited by Darragh Greene on 02 July 2006 at 12:56pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132622
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| Posted: 02 July 2006 at 1:01pm | IP Logged | 12
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("Lost Girls") is being solicited and already published so I'm led to believe that it might be legal. Not absolutely. Not positively. But at least possibly. *** The Ormond Street Hospital disagrees -- and so do various governments around the world, all of whom have extended their ownership of the copyright far beyond the death of the original author. Unless Moore wants to say a Children's Charity Hospital has no right to raise money from the licensing of "Peter Pan", I see no point in his pornography. And if that is his point, he is wrong.
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Topic Closed)
