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Greg McPhee Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 25 August 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 5085
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Posted: 08 June 2006 at 7:14am | IP Logged | 1
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I ask this question, or more precisely start this thread due to the fact that 20 years later DC is still trying to clear the loose ends (mess) that this series left. You only have to see the "tie-up" series like Zero Hour, Identity Crisis, Day of Vengeance and Infinite Crisis to realise that it never fufilled its original purpose all those years ago.
True, it allowed for characters like Superman and Wonder Woman to get a jumpstart, but I can't help feeling that the DC Universe wasn't broke so there was no need to fix it in such a major way. A great deal of the goals of Crisis could have been worked in to ongoing comics.
I never had a problem with the multiverse, and could understand perfectly that they were different versions of characters like Superman and Batman on other Earths, without getting confused (as Roy Thomas had stated in his letter column for Young All-Stars # 1 was a factor behind Crisis).
True, Superman did need to have a lot of the "barnacles" shaken off, and MOS did achieve this, as did George Perez' Wonder Woman revamp.
Barry Allen is an example of a character who seemed to be squandered for no good reason. Whilst his series had floundered for a while, I still think he could have had a bit of a jumpstart and been great again without killing him off.
The Legion of Super-Heroes, despite the Pocket Universe/Superboy/Time Trapper storyline devised by JB and Paul Levitz, has never recovered.
I can't help feeling though that certain revamps aside we (the readers and creators) lost more than we gained.
Edited by Greg McPhee on 08 June 2006 at 7:42am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133117
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Posted: 08 June 2006 at 7:15am | IP Logged | 2
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No.
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Matt Linton Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 13 December 2005 Posts: 2022
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Posted: 08 June 2006 at 7:17am | IP Logged | 3
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Necessary? No. DC could just as easily have said in all of their books, "Next Issue: The DC universe goes back to the beginning! Read about your favorite heroes from day one!" and just restarted the whole thing. It probably wouldn't have alienated any more people than Crisis did, and would have avoided much of the later confusion. Basically, DC universe ends, new DC universe begins.
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Keith Lee Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 31 May 2006 Location: United States Posts: 45
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Posted: 08 June 2006 at 7:27am | IP Logged | 4
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All: At least DC seems to be getting some of the continuity problems behind them with 52. Wonder Woman appeared first THEN Wonder Girl appeared -- not the other way around! I still like COIE and IC. I don't mind change as long as there is consistency. I loved Bryne's Superman and Wein's Wonder Woman. They went back to basics and reminded us how wonderful the simpler versions of these characters were. The great thing about IC is that they acknowledge the past multiverse in current continuity. That allows us fans to see more reprints of the GA and SA stories; and occasionally, have them mentioned in some current issues. To me, the best of both worlds -- new vistas without compromising the past. Now, if they would only write a new history of the JSA and incorporate James Robinson's Golden Age into it.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133117
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Posted: 08 June 2006 at 7:32am | IP Logged | 5
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I see "event mentality" has become so pervasive even the "easy solution" is thought of in terms of an event.Let's think about CRISIS. What was it all about? The main excuse was that all those extraneous Earths were "confusing". Confusing mostly to anal fanboys who wanted to be able to draw up exact timelines, so needed to know precisely when Earth 1 "started". The first and biggest mistake DC made was trying to answer any of those idiotic questions. At least with anything more than "it's FICTION, you morons!" So, it was all "too complex" and "too confusing" and something had to be done -------- So why not just ignore it? How many references have there been to Bruce Wayne's insane older brother since he made his debut? If something doesn't work anymore, simply stop making references to it. Stop doing Earth2 stories. Letters of complaint? Don't print 'em. (You might not be all that surprised to learn this was the most often used solution to fan complaints, back in the days before the internet, before organized fandom. If a book got 500 letters in a month and 20 of them were grousing about something, the editor knew those 20 people were not likely to be in touch with each other. If none of the letters were printed, the writers would assume each of them was the only one to complain about that point. Not the case today, of course One complain spawns a hundred others, all eager to jump into the circle-jerk.) Just Don't Do It Any More is the simplest, most elegant solution to anything that no longer works. Unfortunately, when you have an industry that is infested with fanboys on both sides of the table, this becomes almost impossible. Serving the characters is far less important than some fan-turned-pro showing off for his fan buddies.
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12662
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Posted: 08 June 2006 at 7:38am | IP Logged | 6
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Going back and forth between reading the JSA and the JLA as a kid in the 70s didn't confuse me even in the slightest. It was all great fun.
But it was the attempt at "clarifying" through the CRISIS stuff that had my head spinning -- and stopped me dead cold from buying another DC comic again. (Mr. Byrne's work excepted.)
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Matthew Hansel Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 18 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3469
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Posted: 08 June 2006 at 7:43am | IP Logged | 7
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What JB said...both times.
Over lunch about a year or so ago, a friend with whom I have co-written several media scripts (TV, Radio, comics), were talking about how we'd "fix" the DCU into something the average person on the street could understand. We came pretty much to the same conclusion that JB did...just ignore that which needs it and MOVE FORWARD and make sure all the familiar elements are in place for each and every story. Make the all accessible. Tell good stories. Respect the characters.
When we were done with lunch, as we were walking out, he said to me, "You know...the fanboys would never go for that."
MPH
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Greg McPhee Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 25 August 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 5085
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Posted: 08 June 2006 at 7:45am | IP Logged | 8
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Crisis always smacked to me of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
As I said previously, LOSH suffered tremendously, and JB and Paul Levitz corrected a great deal of the Crisis problems with their Pocket Universe story, but the damage could never fully be repaired.
Roy Thomas had to see his two books All-Star Squadron and Infinity, Inc. completely gutted by Crisis. For the last couple of years on those books you got the feeling Roy was trying to salvage what he could from the remains of Earth 2, and was trying to do his best for the readers.
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Dave Carr Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1850
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Posted: 08 June 2006 at 7:45am | IP Logged | 9
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All DC had to do in 1986 to get this Marvel Zombie to read their books was hire John Byrne to do Superman. Hell, they could have put him on Atari Force, and I would have bought it. Crisis wasn't needed. Good superhero comics were.
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Matthew Turnage Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 19 May 2006 Location: United States Posts: 143
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Posted: 08 June 2006 at 8:12am | IP Logged | 10
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Crisis wasn't necessary, but I'm reluctant to say it shouldn't have happened, because I did enjoy the miniseries. More importantly, if it weren't for Crisis, DC might not have been willing to completely revamp Superman, and I might never have become a Superman fan.
Having said that, I was always unconvinced by the stated reason that the multiverse concept was "too confusing." The first time I specifically remember reading a comic that dealt with the Earth-2 concept was The Brave and The Bold #200 (Earth-1 Batman "teams up" with Earth-2 Batman) when I was seven years old. The basic idea of the two earths was explained over a two page spread (it really could have been done in one, but this was a giant-sized issue and they had the room I guess) and rather than be confused, I thought it was cool. I mean, a whole different world with a different Flash and Green Lantern, and they wear different costumes? What else could be different on this other world? Can there be even more worlds with even more heroes? I wasn't confused, I was excited.
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Wayne Osborne Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3817
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Posted: 08 June 2006 at 8:16am | IP Logged | 11
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At the time, I thought, yes...........but I've grown up since then.
WO
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Jon Godson Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 05 January 2005 Posts: 2468
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Posted: 08 June 2006 at 8:28am | IP Logged | 12
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Any DC Universe where Superman is not the first hero is wrong. Just wrong.
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