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Eric Kleefeld Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4422
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 12:05am | IP Logged | 1
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JB:
"That line" ["But aren't they all?"] has become the standard smart-ass
response to any mention of an 'imaginary story'. Yet another way for
some fans to declare themselves to be so much superior to these silly
comic books.
====================
I was not aware of that; one bit of fanboy subculture I never picked up on.
What's odd is how that meaning of it has no real connection to the
original usage. It's one more piece of evidence for me that the real
problem isn't Moore himself, but fans (and some writers) who
misinterpret his stuff for their own preconceptions and desires.
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Troy Nunis Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4598
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 12:09am | IP Logged | 2
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Never liked Watchmen, never found any of the characters likeable so i would even care what happened one page to the next -- a study of it shows alot of good structure -- but it wasn't entertaining to me, regardless of the tragic impact it had on the whole Super-Hero genera.
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Jason Schulman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2473
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 12:11am | IP Logged | 3
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By the way, there are some intelligent discussions on Watchmen and Moore's recent work at the Comics Journal discussion board:
http://www.tcj.com/messboard/ubbcgi/forumdisplay.cgi?action= topics&forum=Comics+Medium&number=2&DaysPrune=20 &LastLogin=
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Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4069
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 12:49am | IP Logged | 4
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Great Dave Gibbons quote in the article:
"What Watchmen demonstrated was a possible way to do
comics. The message was to broaden--not to narrow them
down."
Most of the criticism leveled at it has more to do with its
reputation than the actual content of the comic, I think. If it had
only caught on as a cult hit, I think most of the negative
reactions to it would disappear. Since everyone (except Moore
and Gibbons, anyway) is always going on about the greatness
of the series, it's built up impossibly high before many readers
even have the chance to check it out, so it doesn't always meet
their lofty expectations.
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Dave Farabee Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 01 September 2004 Posts: 981
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 1:22am | IP Logged | 5
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WATCHMEN?
One of my all-time favorite comic reading experiences. Masterful control over story flow by means of its regimented panel structure. Amazing characters steeped in human frailty, but no less compelling or beautiful for their weakness. Powerful themes interwoven to great satisfaction. Fascinating writing structure based in irony - is there anything more postmodern? Dense as hell, and fascinating to lose oneself in. A very emotional read.
It's definitely one of those books that I can pick up every once in a while, turn to any given chapter, and enjoy. Been several years since I've read it, and just off the top of my head the only criticisms I have to level against it deal with its sci-fi touches. Mentions of psychics once or twice weaken its ties to reality, the Big Plan is of course wildly far-fetched and cribbed from another source (though credited), and I always had a bit of a hard time with the idea that all heroes in the world are just normal guys and gals...with the sole exception of Doctor Manhatten - just seemed an odd foundation for a realistic setting.
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Dave Farabee Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 01 September 2004 Posts: 981
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 1:39am | IP Logged | 6
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QUOTE:
And JB -- I've never understood your problem with the "aren't they all" statement -- I always assumed that all Moore meant was that "imaginary stories" are no less "important" than "canonical" stories, and that decades of Superman stories are about to be declared "imaginary" in 1986 shouldn't diminish whatever emotional connection one might have with them. |
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I feel about 95% sure from the context of the story that you're dead-on in interpreting the line as Moore paying respect to the DC stories about to be "wiped out" by CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS. But if anything I'd say his observations about imaginary stories go one step further in their respect. When he asks, "Aren't they all?", there are no caveats that he's talking specifically about DC stories or even limiting himself to superhero stories in general - when he says "all" he's connecting imaginary stories to the whole, wide tapestry of storytelling.
I think it's a lovely sentiment.
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Kevin Hagerman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 April 2005 Location: United States Posts: 18168
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 1:45am | IP Logged | 7
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Watchmen was awesome. What it did to the industry was a shame.
edited because I can't spell "Watchmen" correctly.
Edited by Kevin Hagerman on 23 October 2005 at 11:06am
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Dave Farabee Byrne Robotics Member
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 1:54am | IP Logged | 8
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QUOTE:
Watchman was awesome. What it did to the industry was a shame. |
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I'd amend that to say that what it did to the superhero genre was a shame. What it did for the industry at large is another matter altogether, as it was surely one of the books that paved the way for Vertigo, for SANDMAN, and for graphic novels that truly measure up to the implied depth of the term. The former outcome is very regrettable, the latter hugely laudable.
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Jon Godson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 January 2005 Posts: 2468
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 2:02am | IP Logged | 9
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Watchman was awesome. What it did to the industry was a shame.
***************
Don't just blame Watchman. Miller had Batman throwing sharpened
batarangs into people. In Swamp Thing, Veitch revisited many old DC
characters like Roy Raymond and Bat Lash in a less than respectful way and
hit almost every taboo with Brat Pack and Maxi-Mortal. Shade the Changing
Man became a book with human sexuality in the forefront almost every
issue. By the time Vertigo became an imprint for such fare, it had already
infected the mainstream characters.
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Flavio Sapha Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Brazil Posts: 12912
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 3:04am | IP Logged | 10
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I like Watchmen. I didn't realize that it had had "an effect" on the comics
industry or on the super-hero genre until I read about it here.
At the time, I was mostly reading the comics Jon mentions (Swamp Thing,
Animal Man, Sandman, Doom Patrol) or the "grim and gritty vigilante"
stuff (Denny O'Neil's The Question, Mike Grell's Green Arrow, Helfer's The
Shadow). These comics usually carried a SUGGESTED FOR MATURE
READERS label, of course, they meant fourteen-year-olds like me -
real mature, huh?
There were plenty of straight super-hero comics going on, especially
from Marvel. I still read X-Men (until Jim Lee ruined it for me) and
Spider-Man (until McFarlane ruined it) and, if memory serves, She-Hulk
and WCA and Namor.
So, to me, Watchmen didn't ruin super-heroes or the enjoyment of the
concept. It was the rising Image 'style ' that mutated super-hero comics
to the point where Charles Xavier had big biceps and gnashing teeth - no
story is possible when all the characters look and talk the same way, IMO.
The one thing that I can't stand that was spawned from Watchmen is the
"archetype" character. "This isn't Spider-Man. It's a character derived
from the same archetype". Kurt Busiek might get away with it in Astro
City, 'cause he's so damn good, but all other offenders should be
chastised. This almost kept me away from Lost Generation, what with the
Black Fox and others. Thankfully, reason prevailed and LG is one of my
favorite minis ever.
Edited by Flavio Sapha on 23 October 2005 at 3:06am
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Eric Lund Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2074
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 3:13am | IP Logged | 11
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I liked it the least of Moore's writting... V for Vendetta was much much better and more powerful than the Watchmen as was Miracleman which was far more interesting and then Swamp Thing which was better as well... Watchmen really was not the best thing Moore wrote at all....From Hell is much better... I really do not see why it gets the accolades it does....All of the series I mentioned did things that Watchmen tried to do after the fact...I enjoyed the mini-series but it was in no way the end-all-be-all that "fans" make it out to be...V for Vendetta was Moore's best work in my opinion followed by Swamp Thing and then Miracle/Marvel Man and then From Hell... Dave Gibbons art was great but that was the most it had going for it...
Edited by Eric Lund on 23 October 2005 at 3:14am
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Steve Jones Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 August 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 548
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Posted: 23 October 2005 at 3:40am | IP Logged | 12
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In the first post to this thread, Dave quotes Alan Moore from the article. The bit I found most interesting and pleasing was when Alan said "My book is a comic book. Not a movie, not a novel. A comic book." He makes no apologies for what it is and I, for one, am pleased.
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