QUOTE: It just seems to me a lack of discipline out there.

Agreed.

In the case of an artist being late for reasons beyond his control. I don't have a problem with another artist helping out and completeing what hasn't been done. Why isn't this practice used ?

************************

It was apparently used in 2 cases that I know of where both artists had injuries preventing them from doing their work:  Howard Porter on Trials of Shazam (arm injury) and Terry Dodson on the most recent issue of Wonder Woman (hand injury).

Paulo wrote:
"Of course, it's perhaps the plots and scripts that breed this type of storytelling or it could be the other way around.  Whatever the case, there is a marked lack of story flow, not to mention content.  There seems to be too much focus on getting things to look realisitic and not enough on showing things happening.  And too many fans seem content to be wowed by the photorealism than to be entertained and drawn into the story.  That's just a basic impression, mind you.  I don't intend to speak for what fans read into these current comics."

I seem to recall JB saying something at some point about Kirby's not being a classically schooled to the effect that it on many occasions served as his strength, that the knowledge of a certain type of "realism" didn't necessarily bog him down, and what he produced in the end captured a dynamic in the images that an artist with a much greater sense of "realism" might find harder to do.

The medium is all about the narrative. And don't get me wrong, details can be used greatly, but only in proficient hands.

Felicity Walker wrote:
"Speaking strictly as a fan of the medium, and setting aside for one moment the business angle and how a late comic affects people?s livelihoods, I would rather get a perfect comic late than an imperfect comic on time."

Well, the big question would of course be what constitutes a perfect comic then, Felicity. And I sure as heck wouldn't agree that detailed perfectionism by necessity is what gets the story right. There are far too many comics out there full of detailed, pretty pictures but which neither tells a story particularly well nor captures a sense dynamic motion, etc.
Also, any artist who is slow, is more than welcome to produce a comic or graphic novel (in its truest sense of a full book length thing for direct publication), but then he shouldn't work in monthly comics. It's just like some novelists taking ages on finishing a book, which is all fine and the end result does count (by which I mean, if they can't work faster, then they shouldn't), but it's all a matter of knowing your limitations, and if you don't know how long your novel is going to be or how long it's going to take writing, maybe you shouldn't sell it to a publisher, have them set a publication date and try to market the book as due that date... maybe just maybe, that writer should do what I think most first time novelists tend to do, and a lot of smaller scale writer of course continue to do, namely, do the work and then sell it. That way the writer or artist can claim their artistry in their own time, which is not an option if you're taking on jobs with specific publication deadlines.

Tony Tower wrote:
"For my money, ULTIMATES reads better in trades that ULTIMATE X-MEN does with all it's fill-ins."

While I agree that it does, Tony, I must also add that I found it immensely frustrating to have the latest TPB on order in one or two Amazon orders where it was eventually cancelled (because of the delays) and still being late on delivery in the order in which it was delivered. I mean, when a monthly title is so late that the publication date of the TPB is delayed by I believe over a year, something is seriously flawed.

And while I, as stated agree, that it still reads better than a lot of other of Marvel's Ultimate titles, I also think it's lost a lot of what I liked better in the first TPB or two. So the greatly added time did not really add that much in the end.
Focus on the storytelling and start from that perspective...

That's interesting stuff about Aparo -- I'd forgotten he also lettered a lot of his books.

There's a certain amount of crowing in the interviews/'notes' at the back of the Ultimates HC volumes about the greatness and detailed nature of the art demanding lateness. I enjoyed some of the art on the first two Ultimates, but Hitch's slowness didn't seem to me to produce noticeably 'greater' artistic effects than, say, Kirby or Perez or Byrne or any number of people working to deadline.

If an artist can only produce x amount of pages a month, fine -- but asserting that as a proof of excellence is pretty darned weird. I don't recall anyone ever asserting that Sting's albums are far superior to Neil Young's albums BECAUSE Sting takes 3-5 years per album while Young still produces an album a year. Or that Darren Aronofsky is a better director than Martin Scorsese BECAUSE his movies come out every three years or so instead of every 12-18 months.

The manga production model sounds a lot like the classic model for a lot of syndicated strips, especially back in the day, like Li'l Abner or Joe Palooka.

Cheers, Jon

"The manga production model sounds a lot like the classic model for a lot of syndicated strips, especially back in the day, like Li'l Abner or Joe Palooka."

If you look at the true greats of adventure comic strip production, Like Raymond, Caniff, Crane et al, most of them  produced six strips and a Sunday every week. Every single strip has about the same amount of art as a full page today, a Sunday being at least twice that (like a 2 page spread).

Each of those strips would be at least as heavily researched and as detailed as any of the pages produced by the current "hot and late" crowd. And in terms of sheer artistry and storytelling often a head or two taller. Yet they produced the equivalent of at least 8 finished pages a week, about 35 in an average month.

These guys were really growing roses, and on schedule, too.

(And I really wish we could dump that metaphor, because, as everyone know, when you grow roses commercially, if you don't grow them on schedule, you lose out on the seasonal sales. I've used the example before of a rose-grower delivering a bulk shipment due February 13 on february 20th. He does not get paid, hell he might even get sued. If anything that metaphor only shows that McFarlane understood as little about the business of growing roses as he did about the business of selling (actual) monthly comics)

We have a saying in my job: If you do the job right, you'll do it fast. (Meaning you do the job in the right order with the right tools and dependable, experienced people and speed will take care of itself)

Indeed, Jonathan. I'm sure some people require more to time to get a good result, but citing it as a proof of the freatness is just plain dumb. And, as stated repeatedly, one should know one's limitations, and if you happen to be an artist who "obviously" need a year to produce twentytwo pages, you should not only not consider taking on a monthly title, you smilpy SHOULD NOT DO IT.

Leave the monthlies to the speedy and good. Slowpokes can opt for an annual release and do their damnedest to at least stick to that.

you smilpy SHOULD NOT DO IT

I don't blame artists for choosing not to refuse work, but I wonder why editors put their own necks at risk by continuing to hire freelancers with histories of being slow.

<<<If we're thinking of the same buy, Glenn, the book was closer to three
months ahead of schedule -- and during its run, it missed shipping
twice.>>>


I'm sure it's the same person, JB.

Sorry for shaving so much time off of your earliness! I'll try to remember
better next time I use that anecdote. :-) >>

The ONLY EDITOR I ever threatened(no...PROMISED) with physical harm. THough I did it ina  very nice,friendly and professional way.

Howard

Imo Joe Bennett kicks Bryan Hitch's ass. Hitch draws some more attractive faces sometimes but that's about it as far as differences go. Look at Bennett's run on "Cap America and the Falcon?" it's amazing.The companys never ever promote those guys.

Doesn't alter the fact that Frank used to be a maniac about getting the stuff in and out on time -- nor does it make the points he raised on this subject any less valid.