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Stephen Sadowski
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 March 2006
Posts: 334
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| Posted: 02 February 2007 at 11:22pm | IP Logged | 1
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While discussing Buckys ressurrection, in another thread its become apparent that many feel that Bucky should NEVER have been brought back.
Personally, and forgive me if it HAS been explained, but I never want to know what Dr Doom looks like under the mask..to me, THAT would somehow RUIN the character. I always enjoyed whenever they did 'show' him without it on,it was always reactionary shots, or shadowed...
What other stories , if any, do you feel should NEVER be told? Would they destroy the character, or enhance it?
Edited by Stephen Sadowski on 02 February 2007 at 11:30pm
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Ray Brady
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3740
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| Posted: 02 February 2007 at 11:34pm | IP Logged | 2
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Wolverine's origin did a fairly good job of ruining that character.
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Stephen Sadowski
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 March 2006
Posts: 334
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| Posted: 02 February 2007 at 11:35pm | IP Logged | 3
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Hmm..never read that..why do you think so?
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David Whiteley
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 2748
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| Posted: 02 February 2007 at 11:38pm | IP Logged | 4
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Wolverine's origin. And I will loop in Puck's origin as well (especially an
explanation of why he is short). Somehow these two characters are better
off with their secrets.
Digging too deeply into the history of Peter Parker's parents. Why go
there?
Anything trying to put a lie to the dignity of basic origins of heroes. JB
recently mentioned some of these, I think, so sorry if I echo him, but
discovering Reed knew the ship would be bombared with cosmic rays and
they would get powers, a Spider-Totem, Dr. Strange "giving back alley
abortions to afford his trip abroad," that sort of thing.
edited to add - Oh, and a definitive origin for Phantom Stranger or Joker.
Edited by David Whiteley on 02 February 2007 at 11:39pm
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Stephen Sadowski
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 March 2006
Posts: 334
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| Posted: 02 February 2007 at 11:44pm | IP Logged | 5
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I'm sure almost any 'origin' of Wolverine would be unsatisfactory for me, probably WHY Ive never read it...I agree some characters are seemingly designed to have their mysteries intact.
There was an issue of Secret Origins that starred the Phantom Stranger, and there were three or four stories inside, EACH tellinga DIFFERENT origin ( one of which him being the guy who pierced Jesus'side with the spear)..I thought that was a great way to approach that character..he STILL remains a 'stranger' !!
<edited to add: David..too funny that Phantom Stranger was on BOTH our minds!!
Edited by Stephen Sadowski on 02 February 2007 at 11:48pm
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David Whiteley
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 2748
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| Posted: 02 February 2007 at 11:47pm | IP Logged | 6
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I have that annual. I enjoy it, but I don't want either version being IT.
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Gary S. Lee
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Joined: 30 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 700
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| Posted: 03 February 2007 at 12:23am | IP Logged | 7
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The funniest thing about the reaction to this "Bucky" is that, to me, Mr.
Brubaker has left it VERY wide open to interpretation.
Sure, it appears that the Winter Soldier is Bucky, but we're dealing with
the Cosmic Cube here folks and to those who read the story where
Captain America "reminds" the Winter Soldier that he's Bucky--let's just
say that he could just as easily have imprinted his knowldedge and
impressions of Bucky upon this former Soviet agent.
And who knows if the Red Skull didn't create the Winter Soldier by
twisting reality just a little bit so as to use him against Captain America
anyway. And I still think that's probably been Ed's plan all along.
Between all of the crap that's flying out of the doors and windows of the
"House of Ideas" these days, the one writer who seems to be writing those
characters as they should be written it is Ed Brubaker on Daredevil and
Captain America.
As for the question, they royally screwed up Logan (or should we say
James Howlett?) with his origin story. No story could live up to
expectations and why destroy all of that mystique for short term sales.
Editors and writers are there to tell GOOD stories and do SERVICE to the
characters so that they remain intact. Unfortunately, these days--not so
much.
G.
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John Bodin
Byrne Robotics Member
Purveyor of Rare Items
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3911
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| Posted: 03 February 2007 at 12:24am | IP Logged | 8
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Talk about synchronicity -- I was thinking of posting this same topic (stories that shouldn't have been told, actually, but close enough).
My list of Stories that Shouldn't Have Been Told (or Didn't Need to be Told) includes:
Watchmen -- the earlier Squadron Supreme story told the same tale and did it better -- the only reason this story was so popular, and the only reason it eclipsed the Squadron Supreme story, and the reason it has endured is the undeniable attraction of the cutely benign, iconic yellow smiley with the bloody bullet hole in its forehead. Reason it didn't need to be told: This marked the TRUE beginning of the "deconstruction for fun and profit" trend. Darwyn Cooke's DC: The New Frontier was a much, MUCH stronger story than Watchmen, but nobody even seemed to notice because despite the fact that it told a DAMN good story, it lacked the inherent kewlness of a bloody smiley -- proof positive that there is no accounting for taste.
The Dark Knight Returns -- more deconstructionism . . . this showed us what Batman was undeniably DESTINED to become, and every Batman story written since this has just been part of the long march to that definitive, unalterable destiny. Worked fine as an "Elseworlds" story (quite intriguining and entertaining when taken in that vein, in fact) -- too bad that virtually NOBODY since then (writers and fans alike) has ever treated this as being anything less full in-continuity canon that is destined to occur.
Kingdon Come -- it pains me to put this one on this particular list because I really enjoyed the story (and it was a VERY enjoyable story, IMO), but it suffers from the same problem The Dark Knight Returns suffers from; specifically, the fact that this story showed us what the DCU is DESTINED to become, and virtually every story set in the "Big Three" DCU continuity since this has just been part of the long march to that definitive, unalterable destiny. Again, this worked fine as an
"Elseworlds" story, but virtually NOBODY since then
(writers and fans alike) has ever treated this as being anything less
full in-continuity canon that is destined to occur.
Crisis on Infinite Earths -- I loved, loved, LOVED the JLA/JSA annual "crisis on .. ." team-ups, so when COIE came along, I was truly hyped -- I thought this was going to be the BIGGEST, BESTEST JLA/JSA team-up ever . . . and I was unfortunately sold a bill of goods. The story (there was a story, right?) was lacking in so many areas that it's laughable, and what was intended to be an "event" that would provide a clean slate for future stories by wiping away cumbersome continuity actually ended up creating a situation where CONTINUITY is now far more important than the STORIES themselves. Lots of pretty artwork, but with all due respect to George Perez, it's like building an exact duplicate of the Sistine Chaple using dog poo -- it might look nice, but that doesn't change the fact that it's dog poo, and it still smells bad, regardless of how good it may look.
Infinite Crisis -- yet again, I was sold a bill of goods with this one. I went in with high hopes -- it seemed as though Dan Didio and company actually realized what a mistake CIOE was way back when, and it seemed as though they were going to finally fix things by re-instating the Multiverse and multple earths concepts, thus de-clawing the continuity beast and paving the way towards an era where stories might actually be more important than continuity, but, alas, all we got was a "New Earth" that left the frothing masses of fandom scrambling to figure out just WHAT is still in-continuity. Sigh. So much for the opportunity to just tell good stories, so much for accessibility, so much for squandered inheritances. [And don't try to tell me I'm wrong about the importance of "continuity" to fandom in general -- when the biggest criticism about great stories like the Krueger/Ross Justice series and Cooke's New Frontier is that they don't matter and they're uninteresitng because they're out-of-continuity, there is something TRULY wrong in the world.]
Marvel doesn't get a get-out-of-jail free card here -- I just don't know where to begin . . . I think the bad stuff starts with the rise of the X-Men about 150 issues after JB's departure, the Apocalypse storyline, the Avengers "Crossing" storyline, the "Heroes Reborn" stuff, the "Avengers Disassembled" storyline, all the way up to Civil War. Toss Ultimates in there, too -- this was a series that originally intended to tell classic tales and toss off the shackles of several decades' worth of continity, yet which has managed to re-shackle itself with its own continity entanglements in record time, thus making it virtuially inaccessible to anyone not willing to invest in the whole continuity enchilada (all readily available to the consumer courtesy of trade paperbacks, natch).
Okay, I'm done -- now that I got all that off my chest, I will now calmly sit here and await the inevitable appearance of the bloodthirsty torch-and-pitchfork wielding mob . . .
Edited by John Bodin on 03 February 2007 at 12:29am
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Trevor Krysak
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 4163
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| Posted: 03 February 2007 at 12:27am | IP Logged | 9
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"Wolverine's origin did a fairly good job of ruining that character."
Nah. He'd been ruined since the late 80s/early 90s. By the time they got so hard up for stories they had to pull out the adamantium and it turned out he still had claws without them. The 90s were not kind to that character. But that's what happens when he appears in every .. single .. comic. Or it started to seem that way.
The Wolverine "mysterious past" should either have been revealed a long time ago (as early as the mid 80s) or the whole thing downplayed. The long build up and tease was a mistake. And then by the time Origin hit it was really pathetic. THAT's the start of Logan/Wolverine??!
Dumb. Very dumb.
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David Whiteley
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| Posted: 03 February 2007 at 12:30am | IP Logged | 10
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I'm fine with "Dark Knight Returns" as a story, but it absolutely should never
have been treated as Batman's determined fate.
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Mark Matthewman
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Joined: 12 January 2007
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| Posted: 03 February 2007 at 1:36am | IP Logged | 11
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--------------------------------
Edited by Mark Matthewman on 10 February 2007 at 1:01pm
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Zaki Hasan
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Joined: 20 April 2004
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Posts: 8105
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| Posted: 03 February 2007 at 1:40am | IP Logged | 12
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Darwyn Cooke's DC: The New Frontier was a much, MUCH stronger story
than Watchmen, but nobody even seemed to notice because despite the
fact that it told a DAMN good story, it lacked the inherent kewlness of
a bloody smiley -- proof positive that there is no accounting for taste.
*******
Not sure I entirely agree that "nobody even seemed to notice" New Frontier. I've heard almost universal acclaim for the thing, both in comic and mainstream circles. Certainly that acclaim is what drew me to pick up the snazzy Absolute Edition, after having never read the book in its initial release. That, plus it's going to be the first of DC's direct-to-DVD animated features. Hardly seems like the kind of attention accorded to something that disappeared quietly into the night.
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Topic Closed)
