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Barry Maine
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Posted: 06 August 2012 at 2:06pm | IP Logged | 1  

Okay...a collector purchases a commission for $X. Two
years later the collector sells the commission for $Y.

In this case, depending on the market, there is either a
profit or a loss on the sale of the art. So Y=X+-Z where Z
is the difference.

So, as mentioned, the creator of the work would get 10% of
Z. So, if Z is negative, due to whatever unfortunate
circumstance in the market, the creator would chip in for
the loss?
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William Roberge
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Posted: 06 August 2012 at 2:18pm | IP Logged | 2  

Okay...a collector purchases a commission for $X. Two
years later the collector sells the commission for $Y.

In this case, depending on the market, there is either a
profit or a loss on the sale of the art. So Y=X+-Z where Z
is the difference.

So, as mentioned, the creator of the work would get 10% of
Z. So, if Z is negative, due to whatever unfortunate
circumstance in the market, the creator would chip in for
the loss?

 

Oh stop.

The idea is to give a small kick back to the artist as a tip of the hat to the one who did the work. If you take a loss, right it off at tax time if you want to.



Edited by William Roberge on 06 August 2012 at 2:18pm
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David Plunkert
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Posted: 06 August 2012 at 2:48pm | IP Logged | 3  

I don't mean to sound glib but do the folks who are arguing that the artist should get a piece of the subsequent sales of their art expect it to work like consensual tipping in a restaurant or with an official organization that collects the royalties and enforces penalties?

Are we talking about all art and original one of a kind things produced and built by individuals that sell for above a certain amount or just comic book pages?
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 06 August 2012 at 5:27pm | IP Logged | 4  

So, as mentioned, the creator of the work would get 10% of
Z. So, if Z is negative, due to whatever unfortunate
circumstance in the market, the creator would chip in for
the loss?

*************

The current owner of the art always has the choice NOT to sell the work at a loss. If they choose to do so, that's their own stupidity.

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Brian Peck
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Posted: 06 August 2012 at 6:18pm | IP Logged | 5  

Brian,
Not everyone has a choice when they have to sell their artwork. Many might
need to sell artwork to pay off medical bills or other debts. Besides the
artists could have held onto their artwork until its value increased but chose
to sell it when it was relativity cheap. No one has a crystal ball and buying
OA should be because you like it not because you think it will go up in value.
My question on this "tipping" idea, who gets the tip? Penciler or inker?
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Dwayne Ferguson
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Posted: 06 August 2012 at 8:02pm | IP Logged | 6  

I have always thought it a silly notion that an artist has a right to any percentage of money received from a collectors sale.

It just doesn't stand up to reason.

One could argue an artist can have rights to a published image being reprinted or reused as a tshirt or other promotional item depending on what ever contract he signed creating the piece-

But with original art one is selling the physical piece. It is a collectiable.
the owner of the art has no right to publish it without making finichal restitution to the owner of the art but has full rights to sell it as a physical collectible.

I can totally understand an artists apprehension at art he or she might have sold now being much more valuable than when they sold it, but that is life.

Take Byrne' xmen work- true it (almost unforeseen at the time) ended up being worth A LOT more than what he sold it for but even the buyer at that time took a chance at its value and I am sure most who bought it before it had a high perceived value did so for love of the piece not for a profit..

Often art can go down in price or up....
And of course the artist always has the right not to sell the art in the first place.

They have the choice to not sell it at all or wait and see if it becomes a sought after collectible before selling it.

Selling it for the cheap at one point and then wanting money later as it goes up in price strikes me as having your cake and eating it too.
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Philippe Negrin
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Posted: 07 August 2012 at 4:11am | IP Logged | 7  

And what about the total combined value of a piece sold a number of times. how much do the "great legendary" pages add up to ?
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John Byrne
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Posted: 07 August 2012 at 5:01am | IP Logged | 8  

I find it fascinating whenever this "debate" comes up. For decades now, we have heard much in the comicbook industry about "creator's rights". A lot of sturm und drang generated over that question. Yet it seems that for some, the support for "creator's rights" goes only up to the point at which money becomes part of the equation.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 07 August 2012 at 5:09am | IP Logged | 9  

have always thought it a silly notion that an artist has a right to any percentage of money received from a collectors sale.

It just doesn't stand up to reason.

One could argue an artist can have rights to a published image being reprinted or reused as a tshirt or other promotional item depending on what ever contract he signed creating the piece-

But with original art one is selling the physical piece. It is a collectiable.the owner of the art has no right to publish it without making finichal restitution to the owner of the art but has full rights to sell it as a physical collectible.

I can totally understand an artists apprehension at art he or she might have sold now being much more valuable than when they sold it, but that is life.

Take Byrne' xmen work- true it (almost unforeseen at the time) ended up being worth A LOT more than what he sold it for but even the buyer at that time took a chance at its value and I am sure most who bought it before it had a high perceived value did so for love of the piece not for a profit..

Often art can go down in price or up....And of course the artist always has the right not to sell the art in the first place.

They have the choice to not sell it at all or wait and see if it becomes a sought after collectible before selling it.

Selling it for the cheap at one point and then wanting money later as it goes up in price strikes me as having your cake and eating it too.

••

If the work continues to generate income, why shouldn't the original creator of the piece be entitled to a portion of that income? How is this any different from an actor receiving royalties from a movie? No further work is done, yet each time the movie makes money, the actor gets a piece of it. Peggy Lee famously sued Disney (and WON!!) for additional royalties based on "new media" that did not exist when she did the original work.*

Once a piece of artwork is sold, it becomes a commodity, just like a movie. And just like a movie, it can continue to generate income. Dave Cockrum died in near poverty, while pages and covers from his X-MEN run continued to rise to astronomical prices. You really, really, really, really feel Dave was not deserving of even a tiny portion of that? Not even scraps from the table?

________

* And this is why the Disney contract (which I have seen and signed) now included a line to the effect that the work is copyright "in all media known and yet to be invented".

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Barry Maine
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Posted: 07 August 2012 at 7:18am | IP Logged | 10  

"How is this any different from an actor receiving
royalties from a movie?"

In the movies, royalties are a usage-based payment for
ongoing use of a property. If I had purchased artwork
from Dave Cockrum, and I put that artwork on a t-shirt
and sell the shirts, he would be entitled a share. That
would certainly be part of his rights as a creator.

To your movie example, if I own a studio and produce a
picture, I pay my actors. Assuming there is royalty
clause in the contract, as I sell the movie on DVD and
blu ray, the actor gets their share. If I put the movie
on TBS, the actor gets their share. But, if I retire and
sell my studio and all of its assets, including the film
I made, the actors would not get a piece of that sale.
Though, they would still receive royalties if the new
owner continued to use the film for profit.

Let's reverse the idea for a moment of audacity. Say I
purchase a piece of artwork for $1000 and then the artist
invests that $1000 into the stock market. Now, the artist
would not have had that $1000 if not for my purchase. I
was his benefactor. Over the course of 30 years, the
artist receives a realized 10% return on the money I gave
him so when he cashes out, he receives $17,449.

It would make no sense for me to expect a dime of that or
feel entitled to any of that even though it was my money
the artist invested.
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Tim O Neill
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Posted: 07 August 2012 at 7:19am | IP Logged | 11  


Dwayne F:  "I have always thought it a silly notion that an artist has a right to any percentage of money received from a collectors sale.

It just doesn't stand up to reason."



****

In California and other parts of the world, it's the law.  The California Resale Royalty Act "entitles artists to a royalty payment upon the resale of their works of art under certain circumstances. This California law is unique in the United States, although it is a well-established legal right in some other countries of the world."  http://www.cac.ca.gov/artsinfo/resaleroyalty.php

Artists and auction houses are currently going at it in court - artists have sued for royalties, and auction houses have challenged the constitutionality of the law.  I'm with the artists on this one.  They are the reason the work exists and there should be something in place to make this a fair situation. 

To call an equal, fair shake for artists "silly" is insulting to all artists whose work becomes so influential that it generates higher prices, IMHO.





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John Byrne
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Posted: 07 August 2012 at 7:23am | IP Logged | 12  

"How is this any different from an actor receiving royalties from a movie?"

In the movies, royalties are a usage-based payment for ongoing use of a property. If I had purchased artwork from Dave Cockrum, and I put that artwork on a t-shirt and sell the shirts, he would be entitled a share. That would certainly be part of his rights as a creator.

••

Isn't resale of the physical artwork "usage"? Indeed, for many collectors, isn't that in fact the whole point? To buy a piece of art and resell it, later, for a profit?

++

Let's reverse the idea for a moment of audacity. Say I purchase a piece of artwork for $1000 and then the artist invests that $1000 into the stock market. Now, the artist would not have had that $1000 if not for my purchase. I was his benefactor. Over the course of 30 years, the artist receives a realized 10% return on the money I gave him so when he cashes out, he receives $17,449.

••

That's not a reversal. That's absurdity. What the artists DOES with such money as s/he receives for his/her work has NOTHING to do with where that money came from.

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